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02/22/2004

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gern

It's BS. Go dare you to go to any electronic store and count the # of people buying stuff by sex. You'll find that that kind of story is made up by either some industry insider hoping that by lying about it other women will think "well, if all the other women are doing then I guess it's okay if I do it to" or it's someone with an adgenda hoping to push the industry to treat female customers better or make products that appeal to feminine sensibilities or something like that.

Same with video game stories that claim 50% or more of players are women. It's complete BS and we all know it as much as we might wish it were true.

ClockworkGrue

I'm not as cynical as gern, but I noticed the article was woefully murky about what was meant by "technology," nor did it specify whether the women were shopping for themselves, or just buying Playstations for their kids this Christmas.

Almost all statistics like this are suspect because of all the niggling little circumstances that can tell us what the numbers actually mean. Like the old "The videogame industry outsells Hollywood" statistic that game-industry people and game-academics people like to toss around to impress the masses, these numbers make for a good rah-rah-rah, but they're still just numbers.

Draigon

"... women accounted for $55 billion of the $96 billion spent on electronics gear."

The article failed to mention the remaining $41 billion was from men buying stuff for women.

paranoia*gasp* They're watching me again!/paranoia

Jake of 8bitjoystick.com

Do home appliances count as "Consumer electronics"... what about "Personal massagers" Did you know that 72% of statistics can be used to say just about anything, 5 out of 6 marketing hype makers agree.

BrainFromArous

Recent surveys indicate that 75% of those polled represent three out of four participants.

This reminds me of that (in)famous IDSA "More Women Than Teenage Males Are Gamers!" story awhile back.

Meri

Guys, guys, guys. Every time I see a statistic like this (and yes, I accept that possibly people are bending the truth their way), if there is a comments section it's full of guys going "that's BS, girls don't play games, it's all a commie plot, look in games stores there's only us pimple-faced boygeeks".

This pisses me off.

More of my female friends own consoles than the guys. Many of them have their other half's vying for the usage of said console, but it is still theirs and they still play on it. A lot.

The reason that you don't see girls in game stores is that everyone looks at you funny if you go in a game store. The shop assistants assume you want to buy Barbie's New Adventures (at the time I was after GTA III, ta muchly) and all the spotty teenagers lurking in the store look at you as if you're some sort of alien artifact.

Girls do buy tech. We're not all buying it for "the men in our lives". We play games on console, the net, computers, handheld game machines, our mobile phones. Many of us shop on the net to avoid the games stores. I'm sorry if the fact that we can still continue to shower daily, wear deoderant and possibly look like our clothes were created & washed in this decade means that we're not instantly recognizable as l33t gamers.

Grow up. We don't want games to appeal to our "feminine sensibilities". We want good quality gaming. Some may prefer less gore, but some of us have started to worry that too much GTA III is increasing the risk of us accidentally going on a rampage in London, running over pedestrians and doing handbrake turns across heavy oncoming traffic. So deal with the fact that we might be here too and deal with the specific statistics quoted, not your "well there's no girls in the stores I hang around in where they're looked upon as aliens" crap.

BrainFromArous

"that's BS, girls don't play games, it's all a commie plot, look in games stores there's only us pimple-faced boygeeks".

Not 'commies.' Freemasons.

More of my female friends own consoles than the guys. Many of them have their other half's vying for the usage of said console, but it is still theirs and they still play on it. A lot.

Fine, but this is anecdotal. It might also say more about your (unconventional) social circle than about the overall gaming demographic.

The reason that you don't see girls in game stores is that everyone looks at you funny if you go in a game store. The shop assistants assume you want to buy Barbie's New Adventures (at the time I was after GTA III, ta muchly) and all the spotty teenagers lurking in the store look at you as if you're some sort of alien artifact.

To the extent that this happens, it's because girls - that is, girls unaccompanied by boyfriends and/or male relatives - are rare sights in those places. The commonplace does not draw attention; the uncommon does.

Girls do buy tech. We're not all buying it for "the men in our lives". We play games on console, the net, computers, handheld game machines, our mobile phones.

No doubt. It's widely known that, for example, THE SIMS is a breakout title among female gamers. But once again, the fact that a game's status as a "hit" among females is newsworthy should tell you something.

Many of us shop on the net to avoid the games stores. I'm sorry if the fact that we can still continue to shower daily, wear deoderant and possibly look like our clothes were created & washed in this decade means that we're not instantly recognizable as l33t gamers.

Ah, nothing like sloppy generalizations to make an argument. You go, girl.

Grow up.

You first.

We don't want games to appeal to our "feminine sensibilities". We want good quality gaming. Some may prefer less gore, but some of us have started to worry that too much GTA III is increasing the risk of us accidentally going on a rampage in London, running over pedestrians and doing handbrake turns across heavy oncoming traffic.

Were London that interesting, I would move in a heartbeat.

So deal with the fact that we might be here too and deal with the specific statistics quoted, not your "well there's no girls in the stores I hang around in where they're looked upon as aliens" crap.

The statistics quoted ARE crap, Meri.

Every time one of these "reports" hits the press or Web about a heretofore unobserved mass of women gamers, the claims fall apart under close examination.

I don't have a problem with female gamers - not as a guy or any other way. My problem is with bullshit hype and media-spawned myths.

Brandy

Aww, can't you just let us have our fun, Brain? What's so wrong about letting us think we could influence the industry, even if its not true? Sure, it's anectdotal, but I think that if you asked girls/women from every part of the country, many would say that they played games or liked fancy technology, as I have encountered few women in my travels who don't play any games or have techie things at all. Hell, how many women do you know that don't have a fancy cell phone. Or, for that matter, a home stereo system. Surely those are considered tech. Let us feel like a part of the group would ya, what harm is in that? Sheesh.

Out of curiosity, how can you be so sure the statistics are wrong? If the poster's claim that she and her girlfriends play games is to be dismissed as "anectdotal," upon what evidence do you base your claims? The fact that you rarely see women when you shop for games is also anectdotal, isn't it?

While we're at it, where have all the ladies gone? It can be hard to tell from the name tags, but it seems that few women post on here. It also seems that most of the articles are headed up by men. If it's Game Girl Advance, where are the women and their female perspectives on games? There's no shortage of male perspectives out there. I was hoping to find a female view here, but instead I read posts asking if "household appliances" were included in the "tech" category. This blog seems pretty male-dominated. Am I wrong?

Bowler

Well, I for one was actually happy that Meri came and spoke up on behalf of women gamers and female tech-buyers. I was waiting for a woman to come and post their opinion on the article, and hers actually rings true to all of the women's verbal comments that were given whom I asked to read this article and comments (yes, that's anecdotal, more comments on that later).

To be honest, half of the comments previous to hers are downright misogynist. Appliances? Personal Massagers? Who can blame her for rallying against that kind of commentary, and I for one am pretty embarrassed that people talked like that in a gaming forum created by a woman. I'm also a bit embarrassed that you decided to chide her for her defensive reaction to that kind of commentary.

And as for her comments being anecdotal, how are the ones with their personal accounts from the men up there not anecdotal? None of us here are scientists conducting accurate nation-wide polls, so I for one am happy to hear people speaking about their personal accounts. This is a Blog with comments. We can try and be as scientific as possible (and I commend the attempts), but by its very nature it's a personal account of events relating to gaming and comments on those events.

As far as the statistics being crap, please PROVE that they're crap, don't just claim that they're crap. I haven't seen anyone put the microscope to the data from the CEA yet, but if anyone has anything that exposes this to be a lie or a farce, please throw it out there. I'd like to see it.

I read the entire article (which was why I posted the link for other people to see), and I have a problem finding these stats to be "crap." There's backup stats that discuss the statement from Radio Shack that they're actively looking for female store managers due to an influx of female shoppers there. It discusses that Sharp redesigned its flat-screen plasma TVs with women in mind. Epson is interviewed about its female users and its attempt to make its products more accessible; Sony discusses its focus to attract more women. That kind of detailed, supportive reporting doesn't come off to me as just some broad generalization attempting to pull the wool over people's eyes.

With that data in mind, how can you all say it's "crap?" Even if it is data that's being "forced" into a Female Consumer Electronics advertisement/enticement, isn't that a good thing? Isn't the entire Consumer Electronics industry waking up and taking note of females out there and making a concerted effort to attract their business a move in a positive direction?

If you want to refute the data, please find evidence to the contrary. While I welcome all mature comments that are contrary to the point of the article, these doom-and-gloom conspiracy theories about the stats provided are not only tired, they're substantially unfounded.

BrainFromArous

Folks, we've been down this road before.

A few years ago, the IDSA published a claim that "proved" 43% of gamers are women.

That raised a number of eyebrows - mine included. Alas, the IDSA won't give anyone a look at their data, as Jonas Smith from Game Research found out:

http://www.game-research.com/art_what_women_want.asp

Things don't seem to have changed. A couple of good questions about the MSNBC article were raised above.

For example, we know that women (as single or married mothers) control most discretionary household spending. So when we hear of "women buying technology," what exactly does that mean?

Does it mean that women are in fact moving into tech in numbers equal or greater to men?

Or does it mean that women are well-represented at the point of purchase because they do most of the shopping for ALL household goods?

Tell you what... let's leave the Anecdote Battlefield* and return to good empirical science.

The burden of proof is on the proponent, not the skeptic. I am the skeptic. Women like Meri are the proponents. So let's see THEIR proof. Let's see some data - properly gathered and open to inspection. Show me, and I'll be convinced.

That's fair, isn't it?

*Although, I must say, I come well-prepared for the anecdote battle. Unlike those whose idea of "old school" is the Sega Genesis, I am a true Gaming Ancient. I was around for the very beginning of video and computer games. TV pong, 2600, you name it. I played Computer Space in a bar before there WERE video arcades. I saw the first issue of Kunkel & Katz's Electronic Games mag hit the stands. I assembled an Altair with my uncle and cousin. I had a BRAND NEW Apple ][ -and played Sierra's Mystery House on it. I have every issue of Softalk and CGW ever printed. I met Dani Bunten when she was still a guy. I played Hunt the Wumpus on an IBM mainframe. I helped maintain a VAX 11/780 for my high school. I went "online" in the early days of dial-up BBSes.

Hell, I remember loading Avalon Hill Microcomputer wargames from cassette players onto early home PCs.

I've known, spoken with and played against thousands of gamers, in multiple states, across a period of almost 30 years - and paid close attention to what I saw all along the way.

My conclusion, based on these "anecdotes", is that gaming has been and continues to be a Guy Thing. Yes, there are female players and many of them are, as the saying goes, Hardcore. And there might well be more in the future. However, right now, it's still overwhelmingly a Guy Thing.

Bowler

Brain, yes, what you ask is fair, however, I have just two bones to pick.

1). While the article you post does indeed raise some thoughtful questions, and I agree that the IDSA needs to release that data to the public rather than charging over $1000 for it (an assumption on my part, as I've found this is about how much these studies go for), it has the disclaimer "Game Research columns express the personal opinions of the authors. They do not represent Game Research as such." Not exactly scientific evidence that what the ISDA reported is false. I'm not arguing that what the ISDA printed is true or false. I'm saying that the article you posted only raises good questions. It refutes nothing.

2). "For example, we know that women (as single or married mothers) control most discretionary household spending. So when we hear of "women buying technology," what exactly does that mean?
Does it mean that women are in fact moving into tech in numbers equal or greater to men? Or does it mean that women are well-represented at the point of purchase because they do most of the shopping for ALL household goods?"

Again, good questions (even if the first statement is based on assumption, and even on assumption, if a single mother is buying all of the tech for a household, isn't she still buying it for herself as well as her children? Unless she never uses the home computer or DVD player or TV, then that answer would be no), however, based solely on the links under CE Technologies at the CEA website, I'd say that the technology in question in the study is:

Accessories (Cables, Batteries)
Audio (CD Players, Digital Music)
Electronic Gaming
Home Networking
Home Theater
IT/Tech Office
Mobile Automotive (GPS, Plasma Screens, DVD players)
Video
Wireless

It seems this is a fairly "male centric" purchasing list, which is why someone probably thought it was news that women were buying more of it than men (and not just the CEA's report. As the article mentions, Radio Shack has noticed that 40% of its purchases are now from women). Is a percentage of this intended for family or home use? Certainly. I'd wager that a large percent of what the men bought is also intended for use in the home by other family members.

At any rate, this is what I meant by prove this report wrong (or right). I did about 30 seconds worth of legwork and answered most of the questions about "what sort of data is in this report" asked by the skeptics in this forum. Hell, if people are really that concerned about it, I'm willing to chip in money towards the $750 it would cost to gain access to CEA's Market Research.

BrainFromArous

I'm not arguing that what the ISDA printed is true or false. I'm saying that the article you posted only raises good questions. It refutes nothing.

It was not intended to. The purpose of the link was to show that when these claims are checked out - when the curtain is pulled back, so to speak - the core data is either unavailable or has been "interpreted" beyond recognition.

I must repeat: the obligation is not upon me to "refute" anything. The burden of proof is on the claimants. I am an Ancient Gamer, and my 30 years' experience instructs me that gaming was and is predominantly, if not overwhelmingly, male.

I know of no other Ancients who would disagree with me - assuming there even are any on this board.

Now, reports like this one, and the one from the IDSA, would have me believe things are entirely different than how I have observed and experienced them.

This may well be. However, the real proof has yet to be seen. If anyone can show it to me, I'll change my tune accordingly.

Until then, you'll understand if I choose three decades' of close participation and observation over some marketing report. :)

Bowler

"Until then, you'll understand if I choose three decades' of close participation and observation over some marketing report. :)"

So I should file you under "people who behave like my Grandfather?" ;)

Seriously, I'm 32 and have been playing games for a long time, too (I remember the Pong arcades as well). Let's not let previous decades worth of data obscure what is possibly the cusp of a Gaming Women's Sufferage movement. And I'm serious about chipping in for that CEA membership.

Brandy

What does this crap about being an "ancient" gamer have to do with anything? Are you using this term with a straight face? How is this supposed to supplant actual research?

Listen, there are many of us, as many as there are guys, that play games. Perhaps the problem may be that we don't identify ourselves by the games we play or that we don't make a big deal of the fact that we play games. Every woman I know, from the American Idol watchers to the art gallery vistors, plays some kind of game on a regular basis, and by game I do not mean freecell, I mean console game or PC game. I have shown up to knitting circles and had conversations about how much we played Contra on the NES. When these articles are posted here showing that women buy games and technology, it makes sense to me, it jives with everything I see in my world. Many of the responses here though have been borderline misogynist, and it makes me not want to visit here. I thought I had found a place that would ooze with female gamers, and there seem to not be any here anymore. The one other woman who posted got ripped apart in what I thought was a rather childish and catty manner. You may find this petty, but I think it really troubling. If I can't find a woman-friendly environment here, where can I find one? Why would any woman want to join a discussion here if they have to contend with all this guff from a bunch of guys?

BrainFromArous

...The Ancient Gamer Speaks....

Seriously, I'm 32 and have been playing games for a long time, too (I remember the Pong arcades as well).

Ah, a fellow Ancient. Well met.

***For the record, folks: the "Ancient" period started with the First Generation systems (2600, Intellivision, Odyssey, etc.) and ended with The Crash (1983-4). With the NES, a new "age" began.***

Let's not let previous decades worth of data obscure what is possibly the cusp of a Gaming Women's Sufferage movement.

Agreement. As said before, women gamers are fine by me. Frankly, gaming could use some new and different blood.

Speaking of women gamers...

What does this crap about being an "ancient" gamer have to do with anything?

Well, it's called EXPERIENCE.

Are you using this term with a straight face? How is this supposed to supplant actual research?

I use the term because (1) it's accurate and (2) it amuses me.

As for actual research, bring it on.

The one other woman who posted got ripped apart in what I thought was a rather childish and catty manner.

You're welcome. Of course, when the woman in question resorted to negative generalizations about male gamers being slobs, etc, there was NOTHING "childish and catty" about that, right?

You may find this petty, but I think it really troubling. If I can't find a woman-friendly environment here, where can I find one? Why would any woman want to join a discussion here if they have to contend with all this guff from a bunch of guys?

By "woman-friendly environment," do you mean an echo chamber where you never hear anything that displeases you?

You're free to respond (or not) to anything the "bunch of guys" post here. How effective you are is up to you.

Seriously, though, this You've hurt my feelings and I'm going to leave stuff is the wrong card to play.

Meri

"Not 'commies.' Freemasons."

LOL

"Fine, but this is anecdotal. It might also say more about your (unconventional) social circle than about the overall gaming demographic."

I don't think I have a particularly unconventional social circle, but maybe that's because I'm in it ;-) My anecdotes were in response to the "go in any gaming store" anecdotes above. I don't claim to be presenting stats since I don't have the cash to do large scale research ;-)

"To the extent that this happens, it's because girls - that is, girls unaccompanied by boyfriends and/or male relatives - are rare sights in those places. The commonplace does not draw attention; the uncommon does."

True. But there is a factor of the attitude preventing further visits for any girl who goes in there. It's a self-regulating phenomenon. Since we're at a stage in e-commerce that you can get everything ordered and delivered to your door along with your pizza, there's no need to go in stores, girls tend to be treated badly in stores, so we don't go in stores. It doesn't mean that we're not playing games or buying tech.

"No doubt. It's widely known that, for example, THE SIMS is a breakout title among female gamers. But once again, the fact that a game's status as a "hit" among females is newsworthy should tell you something."

I think whenever a game is a hit amongst females over males a fuss is made, because most games aren't popular with women and not with men. I've gotten the impression that this is the case with the SIMS. The attitude that "anything that hasn't been reported as a girl-game must be a guy-only game" is more damaging and what I object to.

"Ah, nothing like sloppy generalizations to make an argument. You go, girl."

Sorry, I thought it was blatantly a come-back to the "are these women buying personal massagers" generalizations above. I'll be careful to quote next time so my irony is better understood ;-P

""Grow up.
You first."

Aww, do I have to? I'm only 21, not an Ancient. I've only been playing games for the last 15 years or so.

"Were London that interesting, I would move in a heartbeat."

Yeah, I probably wouldn't run away from it quite as often either ;-) Fact of the matter is, though, that you'll never be able to run over people to get their ammo in quite the same way :-(

"The statistics quoted ARE crap, Meri."

They may well be, but as Bowler has said, no one has looked at THIS set of stats and justified why THEY think they are crap. I'm quite happy to admit that they may well be and it might be industry hype, yada yada yada. But what happened here before I posted was a lot of people going "that's bullshit because I don't believe women play games " and making rather misogynistic comments, rather than analysing the stats and explaining why they thought they were BS. I responded in kind and possibly I should have done the analysis instead. I'll remember next time ;-)

"I don't have a problem with female gamers - not as a guy or any other way. My problem is with bullshit hype and media-spawned myths."

Then my problem is not with you. I have similar problems with the hype-merchants, but I don't have to like guy gamers assuming that because I am not like them (in a variety of ways) that I can't possibly enjoy the same pastime. I was being reactive and this is what I was being reactive to. And I was being serious when I said that every time I see a report like this I see the same sort of discriminatory talk. Many guy gamers seem to be trying to protect their area or something. Those commenting in the first few posts seem to think that women gaming is a) unthinkable and b) to be treated with disdain if it does occur. Why can't we play too?

Elly

BrianFromArous does make some completely sensible remarks; making generalisations about male gamers and men in general is not what I beleived this website to be about when I entered into it and took my first look around approx 15 minutes ago.

Why has this discussion turned into a competition? It seems that the divide between gender in the gaming world is only increased by comparing female gaming statistics against male gaming stats in order to place a "winner".

gaming is fantastic! Lets not forget this fact and it is fantastic for men as well as women.

Surely it would be more interesting to discuss the types of games that appeal to either sex and the reasons behind those choices.

Although the Sims may be a very popular game with female gamers I myself have never really enjoyed it. Racing games (GT, MarioKart), adventure (prince of persia) and of late Knights of the Old republic are among my personal favorites. As games are becoming more intricate, larger in scope and design there is more to attract women to the world of consoles/pc's than there ever was before. Several of my female friends who have never before played a game on a computer save solitaire during tiresome moments of essay writing are beginning to test the waters.

This is a fantastic opportuntiy for game designers/writers to consider this growing market and reflect its desires (in my case, storyline...I can't get enough of a great storyline and of a well timed fight). This is an exiting time for gaming, lets not get sidetracked by arguing over who loves it the most.

So get gaming! And let me know what it is about it that you all love so much!

BrainFromArous

Many guy gamers seem to be trying to protect their area or something.

Absolutely true. I'm guilty of this myself from time to time.

(Also, I should note, were it not for my mother - who I safely assume is a woman - I would never have gotten into video games in the first place....)

I've also noticed the "Clubhouse" mentality among my fellow Ancients when it comes to younger MALE gamers. There is a not-very-veiled anger at how easy contemporary gamers have it - with the Net, dozens of gaming mags, TV coverage, multiple excellent platforms to choose from. There truly is an embarassment of riches.

Not only that, but the range of titles is dazzling. I well remember when strategy/wargames and "deep" RPGs were almost unheard of on consoles. Now? Take your pick.

I think sometimes that we really are drunk on it. Consider: for about $100 you could get a used DreamCast, a few controllers and enough great games to keep you busy for a year. Yet half of my gaming friends will whine, "I can't find anything worth playing lately!"

Hm. Back to women gamers: fine with me. Truth be told, I am not terribly impressed with the taste and style of the male cohort that makes up the bulk of current gamers (players and designers both). I've had quite enough "attitude" and "extreeeeme" whatever, thanks.

More women, more men from wider and more diverse backgrounds, more people who aren't in thrall to the notion that there is something "radical" about stuffing games with gratuitous offensive content... all fine with me. :)

Also, as I think about it, your point about the "woman-repulsion" factor of the gaming scene (incl. stores) is well taken. It could be that, being a guy, I don't see it unless I actively look for it. I can certainly see women being either annoyed or appalled by many of the gaming adverts I've seen.

I would ask this, though: Don't lump us all together. There are plenty of gamer guys like me who don't see women as the Enemy/Other/Bringer of Cooties. We just don't make as much noise or get as much cultural attention as the vulgarians and misogynists.

(Exceptions made for loquacious fools like me; we love to hear ourselves talk...)

***

It would be interesting and useful to get our collective teeth into some real, defensible demographic/marketing data - without spending hundreds of dollars. Anybody have any ideas?

***

One last thing... it wasn't the Freemasons. It was the Knights of Malta.

brownhound

WARNING: more anecdotal evidence follows!

it's my experience with this site that there is a repeating conversation occuring. it goes like this:

darn it there aren't enough girl gamers and something needs to be done!
hey this new report says there are a lot of girl gamers
oh that's crap. there aren't enough girl gamers and something needs to be done!
but i know a lot of girl gamers
yeah so do i
yeah so do i
oh that's crap. there aren't enough girl gamers and something needs to be done!

rinse and repeat.

i used to think there was good lively conversation on this site, but it's the same pattern droning on and on.

blah blah blah. while all of you yap on about whether women/girls game or not, I'M DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT. i have three girls and they're all being raised to be gamers. two are 2 1/2 and one is 5. they are being raised with a NES, Genesis, Dreamcast, Playstation 2, Gamecube, PC, Gameboy, and even an old Mattel head-to-head football game in the house. yes, i'm a so-called gaming "ancient" and i'm passing it on to my girls. does mom agree? she asked for an NES and legend of zelda cart for MOTHER'S DAY last year. 'nuff said.

Meri

Yay for Brownhound! Does my BEING a girl gamer count for anything do you think?

BrainFromArous

Let's hope those youngsters get some time outside as well. :)

The NES is Old School, not Ancient. The NES arose from the ashes of the Crash, and nobody who got into gaming after the Crash is an Ancient.

Here's how it breaks down:

The Prometheans
The actual creators of the whole thing. There are only two: Nolan Bushnell (Arcade Video Games) and Ralph Baer (Home Video Games).

First Generation: The Ancients
Those who played Pong and Computer Space in bars and arcades, and later the Odyssey, 2600, and other 1stGen consoles at home.

Second Generation: The Old School
Those who embraced the NES and its contemporaries after the Crash. Also those who played the Genesis and SNES. Generally speaking, the Old School ends with the ascension of CDROM consoles.

Third Generation: The Shining Disc
Includes 3DO, PlayStation, Saturn, etc. Also includes N64, even though Nintendo disastrously chose to put the carts before remorse.

Fourth Generation: The Current Age
Dreamcast (RIP), Gamecube, PS2, and Xbox.

As for the presence of women, in my experience...

Prometheans: None. But then, it's just two people.

1stGen/Ancients: Many. The 1stGen consoles had wide appeal; they were not taken to be "gendered," as the term goes.

2ndGen/Old School: Few. For whatever reasons, video gaming becomes noticeably "male" after the Crash.

3rdGen/Shining Discs: Few, but increasing. Part of this due to the insane success of the PlayStation, which has cross-gender appeal like nothing since the old 2600.

4thGen/Current Age: Well, this would appear to be the bone of contention...

Brandy

Where do I fit in? I've been playing games since my dad brought home a Coleco and an Asteroid console, but I do own a pair of breasts. Does my opinion count? Or does it only count if your the proud owner of a cock?

For christ's sake, I don't want an echo chamber here, just less wimmin hatin'. If I wanted dismismissive rhetoric, I'd visit the SA forums or the Penny Arcade forums and post what bowler posted. This is supposed to be a site that promotes the female gaming experience. I was only commenting that there is not only a dearth of women on this site but there is also a plethora of men opposed to the concept of women gamers being a significant percentage of gamers as a whole. I didn't want to leave because my feeling were hurt, I wanted to move on because I get bored reading this shit. It's the same crap I see rehashed on every site dedicated to gaming. There's nothing making this site unique anymore. It's just another male perspective on gaming. How ho-hum. The only thing making it girly is the pink banner, and I hate pink.

Bowler

Wait, I posted some dismissive rhetoric? Are you confusing me with someone else? I'm the guy who posted this *positive* piece on girls and technology in the first place!

Christ, even my other posts regarding my own entry were all positive and supportive. What the christ?

Brandy

Sorry, I guessshould have been clearer, you're okay Bowler. I was terming the responses to your original post as dismissive. I guess I'm bad with comparisons. I don't want to discourage you from posting, as that's the sort of stuff I want to read here.

BrainFromArous

Where do I fit in? I've been playing games since my dad brought home a Coleco and an Asteroid console, but I do own a pair of breasts. Does my opinion count? Or does it only count if your the proud owner of a cock?

Ah, do I hear the Pity Bell ringing? :)

If you got into gaming with the ColecoVision, then you're an Ancient Gamer. Congrats.

FIY, many women ARE the proud owners of cocks, if you take my meaning.

For christ's sake, I don't want an echo chamber here, just less wimmin hatin'.

We hate women? How exactly did you come to that conclusion?

If I wanted dismismissive rhetoric, I'd visit the SA forums or the Penny Arcade forums and post what bowler posted.

You have my solemn vow that I will never dismismiss you.

This is supposed to be a site that promotes the female gaming experience. I was only commenting that there is not only a dearth of women on this site but there is also a plethora of men opposed to the concept of women gamers being a significant percentage of gamers as a whole.

Hold on. Being skeptical of something is not the same thing as being opposed to it. I for one stated explicitly that women gamers are fine with me - the more, the merrier. I have my doubts over the degree to which this is happening.

I didn't want to leave because my feeling were hurt, I wanted to move on because I get bored reading this shit. It's the same crap I see rehashed on every site dedicated to gaming. There's nothing making this site unique anymore. It's just another male perspective on gaming. How ho-hum. The only thing making it girly is the pink banner, and I hate pink.

Ah yes, the "male perspective." Because of course there's no difference between the way gaming is viewed by Shigeru Miyamoto, Richard Garriott, Will Wright, John Carmack, Peter Molyneux, Chris Crawford, etc? It's all just part of the "male perspective."

Ok, I'll bite: What is the FEMALE perspective, then?

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