Anyone who actually pays $550 bucks for some imaginary shit deserves a very unimaginary straight jacket.

No. Anyone who will pay $550 bucks for some imaginary shit, deserves to pay for what my bots collect and to feed and clothe my family.

Lighten up, already - it's just a game and just money. Games and money always happen. Move on.

To be quite honest, just let them...their waste is everyone's gain! RPGs are an escape from life, and if someone really wants to live in this imaginary world, they can convert all their real-life possesions to bits of data...

To Fleischmann :
"Anyone who actually pays $550 bucks for some imaginary shit deserves a very unimaginary straight jacket."

Well, a song is an imaginary thing. As is a movie. As is a post in a thread, and the internet (can you grab internet?). As are all mind games. As is a phone conversation with a friend. As is imagination.

Who would'nt pay for these?

"Anyone who actually pays $550 bucks for some imaginary shit deserves a very unimaginary straight jacket." But consider that money itself is an imaginary idea, a consentual hallucination with the force of law behind. It never existed in nature.

You are all thinking about it wrong though.

1) most of these gamers are professionals in everyday life. some or a good percentage with sick salaries.

2) of those people, many that have been playing mmogs for years would consider playing an MMO a full time hobby

3) $500.00, $1000.00, $2000.00+ is nothing to spend on a hobby when youre making money and really don't spend it on much else..

If they have the money to spend and not the time to play because of work, I think its great that high school (or younger) and college students that do play a lot can make some money from it.

nooglide

To Fleischmann :
"Anyone who actually pays $550 bucks for some imaginary shit deserves a very unimaginary straight jacket."

Well, a song is an imaginary thing. As is a movie. As is a post in a thread, and the internet (can you grab internet?). As are all mind games. As is a phone conversation with a friend. As is imagination.

Who would'nt pay for these?

Actually songs and movies are not imaginary, the film the movie is on is not imaginary as well as the cd the song is on is not imaginary. the sounds and images are both very real. the feelings these produce are not imaginary either (ie hope, despair, depression, anxiety). though they are intangible they are still very real. intangible and imaginary are not synonymous. a good way to tell the difference between reality and imagination, is that no one else can see your imagination.

"Well, a song is an imaginary thing. As is a movie. As is a post in a thread, and the internet (can you grab internet?). As are all mind games. As is a phone conversation with a friend. As is imagination."

I think you are all missing the BIGGER point, Name..A song is not imaginary when it is magnetic data on a tape, a bump on a optical CD, or 0's and 1's on a harddrive. Same goes for the movies, and the internet. They all have tangiable costs to make those "imaginary" things real.

uhh... lighten up?

If somebody wants to spend their hard-earned (or easily-earned, whatever) money on somebody else's "labor", it's their business. Believe me, the people selling this stuff have put in hours of their time and expertise into the game. The people buying it (1) dont want to take the time to acquire it and/or (2) dont have the skill to acquire it and/or (3) dont mind spending the money to get ahead.

I dont play these games nor would I pay for this stuff... but it's not my place to judge those who do. How would you like somebody to judge you and what you spend your money on?

"How would you like somebody to judge you and what you spend your money on?"

People already do - they're called liberals. Figure a little payback isn't too much to expect.

"Actually songs and movies are not imaginary, the film ... though they are intangible they are still very real. intangible and imaginary are not synonymous. a good way to tell the difference between reality and imagination, is that no one else can see your imagination." -- (I cut this down because you can read it above.)

Why is paying $550 for the ability to experience this game different from purcasing a film or a song? You state that a song, or movie is a physical item. Or that a song, or movie creates emotions that are real. In fact, I find that playing games based on the SW Universe enables me to draw on the very memories that the SW songs and films generated when I was a child. I experience pleasure, joy, anger and sadness as I try, fail, and succeed while playing these games.

I personally, with a child, a new house, and a wife can't afford to shell out $550 for the game in one lump sum. But if you truly want to be part of this universe it probably saves you some time to do so. Why do people spend $75K on a car when $10K will get you to work just as well? And why do some people buy every stinking piece of Star Trek memorabilia? I think that is just as much a waste as purchasing "resources" on a game that you may play for years. In fact, why buy a CD for $20 when you are only going to like 3 songs, on avg., anyway?

I enjoy playing games, and over my life have probably bought hundreds. Now they are all gone. So are the cars, CDs, and books I once used. All of them have been discarded, so why did I buy them? Because I got use out of them. But, are they still real? Who knows. Who cares. Many left an impact on me, many did not. The same can be said for someone purchasing 500K credits in a video game, eventually they will run out, but not the experience of using them. Just like everything else. We all have our own desires, and for some it is to play an online game. And, $550 isn't a lot if it makes you happy. Isn't that what it's mostly about?

From Chad and Kandyman676:
"the film the movie is on is not imaginary"

So you guys are telling me that when you pay to see a Movie, you walk out of the theater with an actual piece of film? That sounds illegal.

So, since the bits of data these people buy are also stored on physical drive space somewhere, how are these things different than paying for the ethereal stuff of movies, or songs or CDs.

Maybe "imaginary" was the wrong word for the posters before to use, but I'll bet you guys understood what they meant, so why bust their chops?

Money Changes Everything. It creates a hostile gaming environment. Most people play games to relax and get away from the real world, not compete with some guy who's trying to pay the rent. At that point, it ceases to be 'just a game.'

I sell MMORPG items on the net (ebay and playerauctions.com). I have played probably every MMORPG game that has come out. Currently I have an account on every server in SWG. I made $1500 in SWG sales alone last week.

I dont see how you become a loser when you purchase online assets. The gaming industry is larger than the music and movie industries separately. Gaming is no different than a movie, except you control the outcome..

However I do have a problem with Sony/Verant claiming ownership of the assets that I spent 80 hours a week to obtain. This is the real problem, in no other place in the world can you put hours upon hours of work into something and get nothing in return. I think it's silly that Sony considers me a slave when I pay them monthly to pay the game. When was the last time Blizzard or Ensemble studios called you to obtain your save games from their RTS games?

Aaaaw, I feel like a proud parent. Look what I created with one simple comment. And I thought I had a thin skin...

80 hours of work and sell $1500 of stuff on eBay. That is $18.75/hr straight-time. It's only $12.50/hr if you get paid double-time for overtime. Point is, I make more than that. No need to quit my day job.

I currently sell everquest gear on Player Auctions, say what you want but I make over 5k a month and I get to work at home!

Say what you want but this industry is not going away and with the type of money being made, the sales will only grow.

I don't see a problem with this personally. To me it's no differnt than my brother-in-law who collects just about every DVD that comes out, or my brother, who builds dozens of military models per month. Neither item really "changes" their life in any way, it's just about being able to enjoy something. And if they have the money to do it, why not? It's not my money, I don't care.

Everyone's got a hobby, something that they enjoy. If they want to plunk down $500 for some extra credits for their MMO character, bravo for them.

*Perhaps* the complainers are the ones without the disposable income who end up spending 40 hours levelling up their characters only to find a new player who can't even figure out how to control his character is already at level 50 with some of the most hardcore items in the game? Is it fair, of course not. But it's life, and these MMO's work hard to come closer to simulating real life every day. It's funny how we play games to escape reality, yet we want our games to be as realistic as possible without introducing the reality of the unfairness of the world to us. Can't have one without the other folks.

"80 hours of work and sell $1500 of stuff on eBay. That is $18.75/hr straight-time. It's only $12.50/hr if you get paid double-time for overtime. Point is, I make more than that. No need to quit my day job."

Sorry if I was not clear enough for you. I said $1500 on SWG sales alone. If I were to add on my other sales on eBay it would place me at roughly $350,000 year (shadowbane, eq, ac, ac2, uo, computers, electronics).

Perhaps the reason why the practice of making large expenditures of money on imaginary capital is looked upon by so many with such disdain is because it allows us to see our sense of self-indulgent materialism from a new angle.

I'm with RD, I think, although I'd like to underline it's just "from a new perspective..."

ahem... "from a new angle"

I just spent (too much) money on a fancy wireless mouse. I eat Lucky Charms despite the fact that Cheerios give me more bang for my buck and are heathier to boot. Hell, I own 7 pairs of Converse sneakers.

I squander my money in all kinds of silly ways. If people want to buy items/characters for MMORPG on ebay, who am I to judge?

You guys need to read Castronova and Dibble (and me, if I can ever put my piece on MMOG economies up on my web page) more closely. It makes perfect sense in terms of the way MMOGs deal with persistence and accumulation. Labor time in the game = virtual accumulation, in a shockingly straightforward way. As Lum the Mad once cleverly noted, MMOG economies are a kind of vulgar Marxist confirmation of the labor theory of value. So what's really fascinating is that people with a surplus of real world labor time (students, the unemployed, the idle rich, teenagers, *ahem* academics [just kidding], freelance journalists) turn out to be the people who can accumulate meaningfully within MMOG economies. But then people who earn the money in the real world can have the last laugh: they can pay for the labor time of the people with labor time to spend, which often reduces the labor expenditures of the eBay pharmer to fairly lousy hourly rates of compensation--some of the eBay pharmers I looked at back in Everquest's golden days, the kind of people who were camping for the one tradeable component of boots that sped up your movements through the gameworld, essentially costed their labor out to $10/hour-$13/hour work when you added up the fixed costs of 2 subscriptions, 2 computers, 1 DSL/cable connection, 2 copies of the software prorated over the months they worked the game, costs of being cheated in eBay transactions and so on. Not minimum wage, but probably in many cases vastly less than they'd be making if they sought real-world labor, even something like temping.

The main thing being, if you make a game where virtual value is almost directly and inflexibly predicated on amount of time spent in the game--as is the case, once again, with Star Wars: Galaxies, damn them--then an eBay economy where people with money and no labor time do an end run around it is not only not surprising, it is inevitable. If SOE doesn't want eBay, then it shouldn't design games that have persistent-world economies that derive value straightforwardly as a function of time spent in game.

It should do that not just to short-circuit eBay, but because having people hammer your servers 24/7 is friggin' expensive, as the team at SWG is finding out big time right now; half the instability they're seeing is because they designed a game where most of the playerbase feels absolutely compelled to spend as many hours as they can possibly spend in the game, and is absolutely frantic when they can't get in game. When MechWarrior IV servers aren't working, the players go read a book or play Quake or something. When a game where hierarchical dominance is determined by time spent in game isn't working, the players sit there and hammer the servers every five minutes out of fear of the possibility that someone else will get back online before they do.

Believe me, I could care less what people spend their money on. My problem is that these guys can get an edge in SWG simply beacuse they have a bigger wallet. Weren't RPGs supposed to be an escape from all this bullshit?

No one's brought up what I consider to be the biggest problem with this sort of thing, which has nothing to do with the tangibility of the goods purchased - plenty of things we buy are intangible. The problems with trading virtual goods and/or services for real money are twofold; firstly, they affect, usually negatively, the in-game economy, so that people who AREN'T willing to put actual money into the game have a very difficult time trading; secondly, and more importantly, they encourage cheating and hacking of the game, which causes all sorts of problems in a persistant MMOG. You can't "hack" real life to give yourself wealth, but games are different, and if game wealth translates directly into real wealth, then people will go to extremes to exploit the game in order to make real money. You only have to look at Diablo 2 for an example of this.

Alex - "Sorry if I was not clear enough for you. I said $1500 on SWG sales alone. If I were to add on my other sales on eBay it would place me at roughly $350,000 year (shadowbane, eq, ac, ac2, uo, computers, electronics)."

How much of that income do you claim when you file your income tax return?

I think a lot of the negativity towards e-bayers revolves around people paying real life cash to gain an advantage over other players. To me, it totally trashes the spirit of the game. Unfortunately, you'll always have people who can't stand not having an "edge" over everybody else. They need that little bit more to make them feel that much more "uber" than the next guy.

Personally, if an e-bayer can get some shlub to pay $500USD for virtual items or in-game currency, I'm glad it's just in an online game, and that they're not applying those merchandising skills selling crack on a street corner.

god..you guys need to grow up!! think of it this way for once..
when you pay to see the movie, you aren't buying the movie, you are paying for a service.
samething when you pay your monthly phone bill or your dues to mmog's.
the fact that somebody desires something SOOOOO much that they will shell of a couple hundred bucks for it, the game makers did exactly what they wanted to, draw the gamers into the game. if that involves buying crap offline for online, so be it. it's still showing a high interest in the game, being the endless lines of code that it is. its just as intangeble as the StarWars universe itself. people want to be a part of this universe, but, not truly excisting, they buy all the crap they can so they can SEE the "universe" of Swars sitting in their very own house.
let the nerds buy their crap for something they can never truly be part of. everybody else does at the movies, why not for a game.

Well for all of you that are interested in selling/ buying SWG items www.playersbay.com will be live in the coming week, we will have zero fees for the first 45 days. On top of the great prices and most user friendly auction software on the net, we offer a in depth verification system to lower the amount of fraud that runs so rampent on the net.

>>Actually songs and movies are not imaginary, the film the movie is on is not imaginary... the feelings these produce are not imaginary either

All of this is true - tangible and imaginary are being confused. But here's the important bit **Items and credits in a game, though intangible, are every bit as real as movies & music & feelings.** It's like trying to buy things at an american convenience store with mexican currency though -- the convenience store will only recognize american money. In the game (mexico) your pesos are woth something. In the real world (america), the peso is worthless. It's all about context. An in-game friend or NPC can make you happy or sad just as easily as a real friend. These are not 'fake emotions' -- they're real. The object of those emotions may not be tangible, but that doesn't mean the emotion is fake.

Okay, okay, before I start, let me just make a note on that whole, "You pay money to watch a movie or see a concert or go to a ball game or experience other things that you do not own." True, you do those things. But the only way of interacting with those things is by observing them. That is not a fair analogy because an in-game item is something you can actually "use" yourself. A more comperable analogy is buying a car that another company actually owns, and is allowed to deny you access to whenever it wants. Also, it may suddenly disappear from your driveway if said company has a technical glitch. In the case of a movie or a concert, what you are buying is the one-time experience and the memory. In the case of an item, what you are buying is the benefit of using that item. The analogy is inherently flawed, and does not hold water.

Okay, now that I have that out of my system, I am just going to pose some hypothetical situations here. Consider them for a moment, and there is a point later. I promise.

Imagine if SOE/LA came out with Star Wars Galaxies: Rich Guy Edition. It costs $200 to buy and $50 a month to play, but you earn five times as much cash, find usable items every time you looted a MOB, and only have to pay a fraction of the "faction points" to get special in-game perks. Personally, I think there would be an outcry, because it would be bald-faced-ly admitting that SWG is geared so that the real-world status of the player determines the rate and level at which they can advance in the game. It would be an economic caste system reflected inside the game and, would in effect, set up a "haves and have-nots" social relationship inside of SWG. But within the context of SWG, there would be no way for the "have-nots" to exact a change, since no amount of effort they put into the game could match that same level of effort from the "haves". There would be no capacity for shift or economic revolution, because the key factor of being a "have" or a "have-not" is based on a completely different economic reality.

I shudder to even THINK what sort of outrageous prices the Force Slot accounts are going to draw on eBay. In fact, I am surprised that this hasn't even come up yet. For that matter, what if SOE/LA released Star Wars Galaxies: Jedi d00d Edition. $1000 to buy, $50 a month, but you get a Force Slot. The whole concept behind the Force Slot system was:

1) Prevent too many people from playing/using Jedi.
2) Keep Jedi rare.
3) Limit the playing of Jedi to people who are dedicated gamers.

Obviously, the first two would not chage, as the same number of Force Slots would creep up even if they are sold on eBay. As for the third one, well. . . read between the lines. A "dedicated gamer" is someone who is willing to fork over the most money over the longest period of time to SOE/LA. In that case, the reasoning for the Force Slot limitations are held firmly in place.

Now, obviously they are not going to do those things. And obviously it would be something that created a huge public outcry. But WHY would it create that outcry? Because SOE/LA is bilking people for more money in order to "enjoy" the game more? Well, isn't that exactly what is taking place now? Does it matter if the money goes into SOE/LA's hands or some macro-maniac gamer's hands? Personally, I'd rather see SOE/LA get the cash. . . maybe then they could keep Eclipse up all day, but that is beside the point. ;)

The reason I suggested these things is because it's a slightly different take on the whole "real world money for in-game benefits" scenario, and this whole eBay thing is just the first step in that direction. If gamers consistantly show they are willing to toss buckets of extra money at a string of computer code that will never reside on their machine and can be deleted at will, without compensation, by another company. . . it won't be too long before those companies (SOE/LA and others) start charging direct.

I never understood why people would pay money for online items. For one, it really isn't an actual item that you can say it's ours. Depending on who created the game, they have the "rights" to that items. Second. How are you to know weather or not the item wasn't "created" in some non-legit way? Christ, for all of though who play D2 right now, I have a hard time in trusting weither or not the item I trade for is going to disappear when Bnet makes another round of their online police force.
Oh, but then someone posts. "Well, paying money for game items is like going to watch a movie." Indeed, when I pay for that ticket, I don't get to take the movie home with me and the rights are still entitled to another company. However, unlike online gaming, going to see a movie with your friends is a hell of a lot more rewarding than buying some item online that is going to get you more kills or up your stats. So begins the debate weither or not online gaming is good for your social life. To me it isn't. Far too long have some people I know loose themselves to some kind of MMORPG and never come out of their room. The worst part about them is that people try to use the social life in online games to replace the their RL social life. In which case, can turn into an unhealthy condition.
What makes me sick out of the this is the people who say. "Yes, they should pay money for the things my BOT gathers." And some say that there is nothing wrong with these kind of sales because they are providing a service to a community. Well, so are drug lords, loan sharks, money launderers, etc. (sarcasm) Oh, and of course I'm going to tell someone who is paying ALOT of money to me for an item that, "Umm yea, I don't want you to give me that $200 because.... well, I think it's too immoral to be selling you fake items." Because you know that EVERYONE online is good natured and will not try to scam you. (/sarcasm)
If you have $200 to spend on items for a game online. Then I want you to pay for fucking taxes and give more money away for good causes because you're too fucking rich.
Fin

hahahahahaha i especially like the guys talking about hallucinations, and what's "real" and what "isn't", those are topics me and my friend talk about when we're fucked up, who cares? its that guys $550, not yours, its his game, his life, not yours, leave the poor guy alone

"My problem is that these guys can get an edge in SWG simply beacuse they have a bigger wallet. Weren't RPGs supposed to be an escape from all this bullshit?"

Somehow I doubt we'll ever get away from the fact that advantages can be purchased. Lets face it, it doesn't really matter what it is you are trying to achieve, the goal can be made a little bit easier with a bit of financial assistance. Want to become a world class body builder? Sure, you could do it by lifting things you have around the house, but it would be easier to buy yourself a bunch of equipment and hire a personal trainer!

It's no different with video games. For years there has been a market for hint books and game modificatin devices (such as the Game Shark). Both of which have the same effect as buying in-game items from eBay. The Game Shark just added a step to the process, you paid real world money for a device that allowed you to obtain better virtual goods.

If you really want to escape that sort of thing, seek out games where it isn't as prevalent, such as any of the Persistent Worlds offered on Neverwinter servers, or A Tale in the Desert, where many of the things that you need to do in-game rely on your skills as a player rather than on how much gold, credits, or real world dollars you have amassed.

Who the heck makes 350k a year playin games? I am in the wrong racket.

Realistically, people without the "right" means to get what they want out of a game will use "monetary" means in place of them. There isn't really a way around it. However, the way it works right now is somewhat skewed... (See Earth and Beyond for a good example of what I mean.)

As was previously mentioned, auctioning of items outside of the game drives in-game demand up exponentially... So, in a relatively short time, you have a huge population of "Uber" players after the same dropped items. A good fraction of these players legitimately earned their way to where they are. The remainder are the ones who used the gear they bought in auctions to speed up their advancement. The result?

Most of the "mid-game" economy is irrevocably wrecked. In-game inflation runs rampant. Why make any investment in low/mid-level items when, with auctioned loot, you would out-grow it so fast that it would be next to useless? The demand for high-level gear, however, explodes. More people try to get the gear than the game is prepared for.

Who ends up with the goods? The guy with the bulging sack of money, is my guess. Does that make the guy a bad person? No... frankly, its a LOT easier to get something outside of the game than inside. Instead of working AGAINST the farmers, you have them working for you. At a nominal rate, mind you.

All of THAT leads to the honest (and I use that term in a relativistic manner) players crying out for a change in the system, which the "Old Guard" resists stiffly... after all, no one wants their hard-earned gear nerfed. Long story short, unsupervised auctioning of in-game gear has the effect of invalidating a good portion of any in-game economic balance. Ultimately, it can turn a great game into another failed sociology experiment.

Granted, I haven't played SWG in particular, so perhaps there are mechanics built in that curb these tendencies. That, however, is all they could do... curb them.

I have to say I agree with the sentiment of Div from PA, which brought me here.

I play games, RPG's in particular, in order to achieve things for myself. This buying of Virtual items is beyond me, much as the way Cheating is in most other online games. Where does your satisfaction come from? Where is the sense of accomplishment after putting in time/effort/skill to accomplish something truly great?

Perhaps these are the same people that read the Cole's Notes for Shakespear's plays in School instead of appreciating the form as it was intended.

Pretty much everything I think about this issue has been said, except for one thing. Everyone is abbreviating these games as MMOs, for some reason, which leaves off the most important (in my mind) aspect of the game. They are supposed to be MMORPGs (MMO + RPG = MMORPG). This means that when you enter the game, you should be taking on a new persona.

Now, this doesn't really mean anything to a lot of the people involved in the real-world auctions of in-game goods. However, there are some people out there that spend real money on game items to increase their enjoyment of this alter-ego in a way that is different than "Now I am more uber than you!!!"

The problem isn't that people are spending their cash to get higher level gear, or more credits, or a better account. The problem is that the vast majority of people that play these games are not RPers. Even on this board, I don't really see any discussion of the ramifications on the role-playing experience, except posts like:

"My problem is that these guys can get an edge in SWG simply beacuse they have a bigger wallet. Weren't RPGs supposed to be an escape from all this bullshit?"

(The easy answer to this is no. RPGs were supposed to be a way to take on a different role, in a jointly-imagined world, be that dark horror, high fantasy or sci-fi)

There is really no way to enforce the idea that only role-players should play MMORPGs, but I think that is sort of the point. These games appeal to a vast majority of people that aren't attracted to the normal RPG experience. Maybe it's because they like the graphics, as opposed to the imagination. Maybe they like that they aren't perceived as a "gaming geek" or whatever.

If you want to play a star wars game without an interaction with the real-world economy, I suggest you start up a game of tabletop star wars, be it the D20 version, or the older West End version.

I just think spending that money on mmorpgs is a waste. Even without the whole converting real money to fake money. You have to pay fifty dollars to get the game. THEN you have to pay a monthly (or yearly) fee to actually play the game. Put that with internet costs and it equals to one skinny wallet. I wouldnt really mind the monthly or yearly fee if there wasnt the fact that I have to pay for the cd first. You should be able to receive the game itself for free... I know it doesnt cost that much money to be able to give them away. I mean AOL makes and sends cds to millions of people all the time. I know there isnt as much data on the AOL cd as there is in the Galaxies cd, but really, it cant be that much more. It's just all the damn middle men who want a share of the profit. (to those who dont know what im talking about, read Reinventing comics by Scott McCloud. Same concept

"How much of that income do you claim when you file your income tax return?"

I can't answer this question, sorry. However there are some avenues available to eBay sellers that are not available to average corner-store merchant.

"I think a lot of the negativity towards e-bayers revolves around people paying real life cash to gain an advantage over other players. To me, it totally trashes the spirit of the game. Unfortunately, you'll always have people who can't stand not having an "edge" over everybody else. They need that little bit more to make them feel that much more "uber" than the next guy."

What most people don't realize when they purchase a character is that that character already has a persona in-game, created by whoever the previous owner was. This is more evident in games like Shadowbane..if the character was in a guild before you can end up being an outcast to ANY guild simply because you eBayed the account. However I usually helped my customers out with this issue by answering any questions they needed, giving them access to my account for guild message boards, etc.

"Personally, if an e-bayer can get some shlub to pay $500USD for virtual items or in-game currency, I'm glad it's just in an online game, and that they're not applying those merchandising skills selling crack on a street corner."

Personally, I think people should be allowed to spend their money however they wish.

It's a virtual reality, not a virtual utopia--unfair play should be expected.

DeVane, you may not have played SWG, but it's disturbing how well you've hit the nail on the head. Currently in the game there are not enough high-level crafters to make mid-range items worthless, but that is already starting to disappear. On of the fundamental flaws with the crafting system is that it takes a person WAY longer to reach Master Weaponsmith (and thus be able to make, say, a T21 Rifle) than it does to read Novice Rifleman (and be able to use a T21 Rifle). Eventually the system will catch up. But once it does, everything but the T21 Rifle will be considered "n00b gear" in the game.

The flatlining of the non-uber enonomy is a problem in every game, and I had hoped that it would be LESS of a problem in SWG. There was a lot of talk about how the Skills would have more of an effect on a player's abilities than the Gear would, so far that is partially true and partially bupkus.

The ugly truth here, though, is that there is no reason for SOE/LA to stop Real Life Auctions. First off, the ability to sell In Game items on them will keep people playing over and over and over again in order to acquire those rare items. That equals cold hard cash for SOE/LA. And the people who buy them are generally people without much patience, or without and desire to play the low-mid levels of the game. Exactly the sort of people that lose interest in MMOs and drop off early. So those people stay in the game and that's even more money for SOE/LA.

This causes even more problems for normal gamers, though, because the more difficult it is to find those Uber items, the more time the Sellers will spend looking for them. Even more money for SOE/LA. It's a vicious and pesimistic cycle. . . but seeing as how I work for Sony Electronics, I have a pretty good idea how corperate policy dictates design and financial decisions.

More money. More money. More money.

Thanks. Like I said, I've had rather extensive experience in Earth and Beyond and its economy. Thinking back though, its problem was probably expounded somewhat by "powerleveling." A nasty practice, and I honestly have no idea if its a valid tactic in SWG. So, in EnB, you not only had people buying uber-gear, you had the same people paying other players to earn their experience with virtually no risk.

All that aside, I do miss playing EnB, and it makes me a little sad that I won't have a chance at SWG. (College student budget+no broadband access unless the local cable provider can be coaxed into running ~.5 mile of cable at a rate of $30 per foot...heh.)

At any rate, though there may be little motivation for stopping player auctions, why not cash in on the phenomena and vend higher-level items for straight cash at an official capacity? Ok, maybe that isn't such a hot idea, but... :)

I think everyone has lost sight of the fact that this is a game. Whatever happened to the good old days when you would earn the best weapons, fight the bosses for secret items, or relish in your accomplishment of a difficult cavern. I know me and my hard earned dollars haven't.

BTW, Project Entropia is a MMORPG designed with a special interface between real-world and game-world economy. The game is free to download and there is no monthly/yearly fee, or even a sign up fee. However, you can purchase items directly in the game world using real-world dollars. ($1.00 US = $10.00 entropia). You can also sell your items to merchants in the game for real-world money. I think it will be interesting to see how this works over time.

Hey, if people have money to burn, let them. Its only benifiting the auctioneers. Not like its hurting anyone.

Myself, I would love to get into this auctioneering racket. If Mr. Spoiled Brat wants to use mommie and daddies platinum VISA, then why shouldn't I be the one to cash in from it?

Firstly, I don't play SWG but my brother does and insists on sharing with me every minute detail about the game so I am quite familiar with it. I think what we are all missing is that when we pay real life money even for "tangible" things we are still actually paying for a service and/or intangible feelings.
In the real world when you buy a car, be it a Ford Pinto or a Benz, what you are actually paying for is a service i.e. transportation and/or intangible feelings i.e. peace of mind, self-assurance, etc. In one case you also want other services and intangible feellings e.g. road-side assistance, sense of fulfillment, other people's jealous looks, etc. and so you pay more. So in theory real life cost of a product is directly proportional to services and intangible feelings you get out of it.
The same applies for the game. I can assure all of you that the feelings I felt when I played Diablo II is just as intense and real as when I operated in the real world and interacted with real flesh-and-blood people. So, in the game the services/feelings you can get out of 500 credits still has a corresponding value in real life cash. So, if someone thinks that the services he/she will recieve is worth $550USD I don't see why that is wrong.

The way I see it is this; There are two things, time and money. You either spend your time out of your lifespan, to gain something (such as ub3r ph47 l3w7), or you spend your money to gain it. If you spend enough time doing something, you're just about guaranteed to get it sooner or later, but money is the shortcut, because it holds real world value. In closing, those people who shell out thier college fund on gaming items, simply don't want to spend the time that they don't have every day, to go farm it themselves.

Funny Alex, I wonder if you'd be so flip if someone turned you in to the IRS for not paying taxes?

Personally, I agree that it ruins not only the in-game economy, but also can be a problem with those who actually play. There is nothing worse that a person who has bougght a high level account, and has no bloody idea WHAT they are doing. So in that, it is hurting other players because someone is buying into something they have no idea how to even play many times.

And it was verified that things within EQ (and I can bet that no only Sony, but also LucasArts as far as it goes with SWG) are the Intellectual Property of the game owner, and the argument that "I'm selling my time played" does not hold water within a court of law, if it became necessary to go to court.

As far as SWG, are many of you REALLY ready to take on LucasArts if they decide it's illegal to do this? I doubt it.

I'm not even going to bother reading all that, and infact I was only at this website because of a link a freind sent me, but consider this when purchasing game items with real money:

When you get off the computer/Xbox/whatever, that armor or whatever you spent $250 on doesn't come with you. All that stuff matters nil when you aren't playing that game.

What else could you have gotten with that $250? All this time if you sell items, or money if you buy them, is all kind of irrelevent, don't you think? You can't gain anything tangible by purchasing the game items, and if you spend the time to get those to sell, you may have a little cash, but what about all the time you wasted? You can't do that forever.

Fodossk: If you want to roleplay, get some paper and pens, and friends with imagination. MMORPGs are just instant messenger with better graphics, and trinkets to collect. You'd be better off on a small MUD if you insist on trying to roleplay online.

New to the discussion. But surely the point of these games is to PLAY them. OK, do I don't play MMORPG's, so I don't really understand the way they are put together or the psychology of them. But with old fashioned games, say final fantasy or something, I don't want to get all tooled up using a cheat code, I want to play the game, like you're supposed to, and earn the items by PLAYING. When you pay your monthly fee, isn't it the experience of playing the game that you pay for? I don't wanna wander round BEING all uber hard unless I've spent time BECOMING all uber hard, and, importantly, enjoyed doing so. I know alot of people have more money than time, but if the game is less fun with low level characters or start out items, and earning items is a chore not a joy, then isn't there something wrong with the whole system?

I like Monkeys, do you guys like monkeys?

heh. The game, There, has simply eliminated the middle man. You pay them real money to get "There" money so you can buy stuff.

The question isn't "why pay money for 'imaginary' things" its why pay 550 fucking dollars for imaginary things. I cans see paying 6 bucks for those "hero" cards or whaterver or eve paying 50 for a ps2 game but this is rediculous, If I had that much money to throw around I would give to charity or go to college. Christ this isn't a hobby, its a fuckin obsession!

The question isn't "why pay money for 'imaginary' things" its why pay 550 fucking dollars for imaginary things. I cans see paying 6 bucks for those "hero" cards or whaterver or eve paying 50 for a ps2 game but this is rediculous, If I had that much money to throw around I would give to charity or go to college. Christ this isn't a hobby, its a fuckin obsession!

"Funny Alex, I wonder if you'd be so flip if someone turned you in to the IRS for not paying taxes?"

Who said I dont pay taxes?

The reason people dislike virtual sales is not so much because they can't get over the idea of paying for virtual items or even paying for a game. The reason is rooted in other things...

Betrayal
Recently there was a guild in EQ whose guild killed the last boss they needed to enter the Plane of Time (not an easy thing to do). When you kill these bosses they give you a "flag" that is basically a type of ticket that tells the game you've met a requirement. You can get 72 flags per kill. Well, he got his flag but since there were more than 72 present some people did without. The next day his character was on the auction block for $2600 and he left his former guildmates a thinly veiled threat that if they did not buy it he had an offer from an unnamed source in a rival guild. Thankfully this guy was such a jerk he only managed $1100 (still high for a toon) but the point was not lost on anyone there: THEIR time and work made HIS stuff more valuable. It's an age old story, really... someone takes common resources to line their pockets. In the real world it's call it embezzlement. In the virtual world it's called entreprenureal.

Detremental
Imagine seeing a high end charater who is looking to group/help kill things. You invite them to help and share rewards/exp/etc. When you start attacking an NPC they ask "So what do I do now?" Selling high end characters often shortchanges people who now have a character who has bypassed what is normally a journey from newbie to experienced players. Thus they find that guilds/groups won't accept them because they don't know how to play. You can't buy practical experience on EBay. Worse, they may find the previous owners gave their toon a bad name.

As far as what SOE says on selling... the reason SOE made the policy in the first place is deniability. You buy a toon with a bad rep? Not their problem, it's against their policy. Buy a toon that wasn't as advertised? Not their problem, it's against their policy. To my knowledge, the only MMOG who sells accounts officially is UO (and Origin makes a tidy fee in exchange for officially recognizing the transfer of ownership so there's no former owners stealing back accounts).

Finally, SOE sold out a long time ago to Capitalism (*gasp* Capitalism in America! Whoda thunk it?). $50 to move all the characters on one server to another (you lose all your gear, tho), $50 to change your toon's name and $29.95 monthly for Legends, a service in which you get all new non-expansion content first, more GM events and faster service (supposedly). There's even an official GM enforced ubermob calendar so there's no squabbling over ubermobs. You might even get new loot named after you and get into l337 b3t4z like EQ2. So saying money doesn't talk is naive.

Hafta hand it to the people who make a living selling loot online.

As a long time, old-school gamer. I have this to say.

It's ridiculous to see this sort of thing occuring. I can imagine that if we all *LIVED* inside of these games, that I would spend real money to have these things.... more likely than not I'd just code my own stuff, being that if I lived in the Matrix, as it were, I already think off the wall enough to be able to do that sort of thing.

But seriously, folks.. I'd spend $550 on a *REAL* suit of armour for my home.. but not for a set of armour that doesn't actually exist.

And that's a comical distinction, Citron, you would pay $550 for a real suit of armor that, most likely, would do very little for you, and might be forgotten within a month as it slowly gathered dust in a closet. While those who purchase items for online use might use that item 12 hours a day for several weeks.

It all boils down to a question of value, and since value is truly subjective it's hard to say whether or not a virtual item is more or less valuable than a real life item. Personally I can't say that I would shell out $550 for anything online, but when I was younger I spent at least that on Magic: The Gathering cards. Now I look at my collection of cards and think, "What the hell did I spend all that money for?". But the truth of the matter is that at the time playing MTG made me pretty happy.

So I don't think that it is really fair to say it is ridiculous for someone to pay that amount for an in-game suit of armor. If the person truly enjoys it then the purchase hasn't been ridiculous, it has proven its value to the person who matters most, the buyer.

Hmm. If unfair play is to be expected, shouldn't the punishments for playing unfair be expected as well?

Let's see. What's a good analogy for this situation. I'm sure this has happened before...So, you've got your hobby, which you do purely for recreational purposes. And you've got your job, which you do for cash. Now, say you need a certain space and certain equipment for your hobby, and you have to pay a nominal fee in cash or time for both. No sweat. It's not high, it's no stress to get what you need.

Now say some crazy young upstart whipper snapper nogoodnik comes in and starts doing your hobby as he would a job. In order to make a profit off of it, he has to gobble up a lot more of the resources than you would, doing it as a hobby. You also now have to compete with him for resources, which you had to before, but only with fellow hobbyists. Big difference there.

Now more people are doing your hobby for cash, and some of them are good at it, some of them are bad it, but all of them are doing it as they would a job. With little joy or appreciation. That's for the hobbyists. Who now have to compete where they didn't have to before, with each other and with all the people who think they can make a buck off of it.

They find themselves paying more and more for the resources they need, both in time, money, and stress level. All to have fun.

I think I was going for a fishing analogy here. You can't really fish in an area that's swept clean by commercial fishers. But I don't fish so I don't know.

All I now is that playing with uber-players who suck up every dammed resource they can get with their bots and their 14 hour play sessions sucks ass. And I rather not pay for it. Which is my right. And when I don't pay the people who actually run the game, they're gonna crack down on the problem. Which is their right. Am I right?

If the forgone opportunities that a user would incur to get a level 500 whateverthefuck lightsaber is worth the real world monetary cost of what some kid is trying to sell it for, then more power to both parties.

While this situation is one of the many reasons I don't play MMOG's, I see selling virtual things for physical cash as a sin.

If anything, some enterprizing individual should organize a corporation where a bunch of these sellers work together and have set prices. A Wal-Mart of the online gaming industry.

hay! why isn't my auction listed!

seriously, if people are going to pay me real-world cash for being an artisan then why shouldn't i build them a house?

Most of the cash you see for auction are usually created by exploits and hacks anyway...

Anytime a good has scarcity it has value. This is true if it is a suit of armor, a loaf of bread, a catchy song, or even data on a disk. If you don't think the last item belongs, try asking Microsoft for some of its source code. If something has value, people will want to buy or trade for this item according to their needs. Example, 'hey fighter, I'll trade you this +5 longsword for your spare staff of power.' Once you have established that an item has value, the only other thing to do is to set the price. For people who can't belive that someone would spend 'real' money for an 'imaginary' good. You need to look it from an opportunity cost point of view.

I believe the that what you are puchasing on these auctions is not an 'imaginary' good, but the time that you would have had to spend earning them yourself. Lets say that in order to make 50k credits in the game it takes about 10 hours of farming. But instead of spending 10 hours online farming MOBs, I look on eBay and find someone who is willing to sell me these credits for $50 USD. I only have to work at my real life job for about 5 hours in order to make enough money to buy these credits.

This means that I only have to spend 5 hours 'working' to get the benefit of 10 hours of 'work.' The fallacy here appears that either way you are 'working' rather than 'playing.' However if your goal in the game is to get an uber toon, you are now 5 hours ahead in the race to become ultra powerful. Looking at it this way, it does not seem bizzare at all to spend 'real' money for 'imaginary' goods because what you are really doing is spending 5 hours of time to purchase the fruits of 10 hours of labor.

Well, gee, if that is so efficient, why doesn't everybody do this? The reason is because not everyone's goal is to be more powerful than the other people in the game. My motto when playing Diablo II is that it is not the having, it is the finding that is fun part of the game. Frankly I'd rather spend 10 hours messing around and chatting with my friends than 5 extra hours at work, even if it is more efficent. For most people I think it is the same way. The fun of the game is in playing, not in becoming more powerful.

The next complaint that I have read is that it cheapens the efforts of the people who have really put in the effort to get the goods. "I camped this spot for 50 hours in order to get the mob that dropped this +12 hackmaster" vice, "Well I bought mine on eBay for $200 in about 15 minutes." If this offends you, tough. It turns out that your time spent camping is worth just as much as some 12 kid who did the exact same thing, only he needs $200 more than he needs those 50 hours. If it is simply the having the item that you want, go on eBay and get it, but in those 50 hours I was camping, I read a book, had several long conversations with my friends, watched a movie, and generally just had fun. Some of the most fun I had when I was playing DAOC was sitting around the forge, practicing my crafting and chatting with my friends. I'm glad I became a better crafter, but that is not why I spent the time.

I guess the bottom line is that you need to look at why you are playing the game. If you are looking to grow and explore you character, take pride in what you accomplish honestly, and take pity on those who would rather 'work' than 'play' simply so that they can keep up with the Joneses.

Okay, here's my take on the situation: The fact that people want to spend their own money is fine with me. I'm okay with people doing whatever the hell they want, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. But, this Ubering DOES hurt the other players. It ruins the experience.

Anyway,here's something I've been wondering lately(And one of the reasons I don't play MMORPG's): Why do the early levels suck so much? In pretty much every MMORPG, you have to spend your first 4 hours of playtime whacking rats with a stick. What the hell?

I like monkeys too!

'Why do the early levels suck so much? In pretty much every MMORPG, you have to spend your first 4 hours of playtime whacking rats with a stick.'

Gotta pay your dues, bro...;)

'I like monkeys too!'

As do we all. Sony calls them 'customers'.

*snickers*

I simply find the whole situation hilarious.

Hee.

Well funy you should say that evilmike, obviously you don't have to pay your dues, just pay some exhorbitant fee's and you gat the head start, hence all the debate.

I'll give my opinion on the whole film/ cd/ mmog comparison. Spending money on a video game isn't any more tangible than the other two. But video games more frequently than other mediums get people so caught up they would spend mind blowing amounts of money on fake things like this. Yes, anyone who spends that much on some fake stuff on a game should be put in a straight jacket, for sure. By saying that, does that mean I would spend it on a movie or cd? Fuck that! None of the things people have brought up in comparisons are worth even close to that amount. I get pissed off when FYE marks a cd up to 18.99! I don't that we need to debate the tangibility of the item, the price tag speaks for itself.

Its just an opinion, and I understand that, I wouldn't expect people to treat it as more. But spending that much on entertainment in any fashion is excessive, and I do pity that person from a purely fiscal point of view. I'm sorry, but I'm a penny saved penny earned person.

Yet another reason for me to avoid MMORPG's. If people are actually making a living from selling game gear, they're going to take it very seriously.

Which means I'm going to log on to play and have fun, and have to go up against a total hard-ass who pulls out all the stops (including the most lethal methods possible--thermal detonators!--or even outright cheat hacks), and hope I happen to luck out and beat him to the double-bladed lightsaber...

And even if I manage to do that, I'm going to have to read the text message from him afterward that says, 'What the hell are you doing? Now I can't pay my rent this month! My kid needs new shoes, you jerk!'

Neither is going to be fun.

What bugs me isn't the idea that people who have too much money on their hands will buy cool gear from E-bay. What bothers me is the idea that something I do in a game might force someone else to go without lunch for a week, because they've decided that playing Star Wars Galaxies is the only source of income they need. That's just mentally unstable. If you can make some extra cash selling off game items on E-Bay, fine. If you quit your day-job to do it full-time, you're not mentally healthy.

There were lots of people in the early 90's who thought they could go to college and retire at 40 on the money they would earn from buying lots of Image comics and selling them to collectors later. They were wrong. There are parallels here--the only reason the comics were thought to be valuable was because other people wanted them to sell to other people. If a lightsaber is only valuable because you can sell it on E-bay, well, have you heard about the tulip crisis in Denmark a few centuries ago?

The items are only valuable because lots of people want to play the game for fun. But ruthlessly acquiring the items so you can trade them for real money significantly sucks the fun out of the game. Thus the game is less fun, thus over time fewer people bother to play, thus your customer pool dries up. Thus your goose is dead, no more golden eggs.

This won't matter to the hard-core sellers--they'll move on, vampire-like, to the next MMORPG. Until the next MMORPG finds a way to prevent the shadow economy--and then they'll have to get a day-job again. And 'virtual light-saber finder' won't be an impressive thing to have on one's resume.

I'm not against the people who sell their in-game stuff for real cash...I'm against all the lame-ass "gamers" who have to buy the stuff these people are selling. Anybody remember the Final Fantasy series? Or any console RPG for that matter? How long did it really take to earn the money to get new gear? Two, maybe three hours, tops! And you didn't always run right out and get that new gear cuz, oh i don't know, you were in the middle of an engaging story? You know, the game led you to a place from where you couldn't immediately get back to the shop, so you had to EXPLORE? And maybe while you were exploring, you-found-better-shit! These games made a very important point; the best stuff is earned.

I've got a question for you people who have "no problem with people spending $500 towards a hobby"

Where else would this bullshit be tolerated?

so you have more money than me to spend on SWG. Why the fuck should that make a difference?

You know, 'fun' is a pretty subjective word.

This is what a lot of people are saying (or something like it) "People who are working in a game to become more powerful aren't having fun!" You know, a lot of people find pleasure in BEING powerful! If they have the resources to do it (time/money), it's their right. They've EARNED it. I mean, one of the most basic concepts of computer games is to conquer your opponent: Show them you are more powerful. Computer games feed into the human urge to acquire power. It isn't wrong to want that in MMORPG's.

Another thing: “Real world economics make games impure blady blady blady.” Face it, if someone has the money to spend on a character on ebay, they had to earn that money. If they want to jump straight to the power rather than investing hundreds of hours they don’t have, kudos. They are using their resources for their own pleasure, and that’s what is important. They are using a game in the way it is meant to be used: For fun.

If it annoys others that such and such a player is a newb with a level 50 character, and YOU had to spend time to get one, well tough. It’s like saying that someone having an excellent job because their rich parents got it for them is unfair. Their rich parents (or some of their ancestry some time) worked hard so that their children would have an easier life. It’s not unfair, it’s Randist Capitalism. Their parents are using THEIR resources in a way that makes them happy, just as the wallet heavy fellow is using his to make him happy. If someone has more than you, don’t cry and complain that everyone should have to be equal! Spend your time bettering yourself.

Another thing that bothers me: Those of you who are judging those of us who enjoy spending our days and money online in virtual worlds. It’s so ‘sad.’ What, are you in high school? Ooo, your big social life is SOO much better than my life of playing computer games. I personally don’t think so. In the end how you spend your time is inconsequential so long as you enjoyed it. This is how I enjoy spending my time so I will, and damn you for judging me poorly of it.

Oh yeah and the low hourly wage thing for selling online characters… well, who cares? That person (Alex is it?) has to have one of the easiest and FUNNEST jobs in the world.

Well, it is pretty obvious that these shitheads are wasting their money on crap in online games. But if you think about it, being on the selling end of these games would be sweet.
Just play the game, and if you happen to find anything good, then you slap it on ebay and get some real cash for the sucker. It's easy money, and it beats delivering papers.

Hmm. If I spend $550 on a whole bunch of DVDs and CDs, in 5 years time I will have ....a whole bunch of stuff, that I can continue to enjoy indefinately. If someone spends $550 on in game stuff, in a few years the game will likely be outdated, the servers shut down and players will move onto the next big thing, or failing that, people will have been playing long enough that the ingame item is common and could be aquired easily and cheaply ingame. I think that's what strikes me as odd about spending so much on ingame stuff- it's not only "imaginary", but transient, in a given time it will be defunct or worthless.

And I stand by my earlier point. While it's not for me to tell these people to stop buying/selling ingame stuff, there must be an inherent problem if playing the game WITHOUT such stuff is not fun. If I was playing D&D I wouldn't create a level 50 character when I started, I'd make a startout character, and have FUN getting the experience. If I wanted to complete a FF game, I wouldn't go on e-bay and buy a VCD of the closing FMV sequence, I'd play the game and defeat the boss, because it's FUN.

And yes, If I was going to play a MMORPG, I'd chose one where the other players were on there to have fun, not to farm the game/wander round all uber-hard. I expect we'll see a polarising of MMORPG's if this auctioning continues, with some games full of farmers and ubers, and others containing players who enjoy the experience of playing through from a low level, and are constantly "migrating" to new games as the farmers move in.

How does all of this relate to the use of cheat codes, hacks, and overclocking in multiplayer FPS and RTS games? Almost everyone hates to lose in competitive games because the other game girl had an unfair advantage.

I think Karen's point (which is a lot like IanP's point) is right -- where the games are about the experience of playing, rather than the attainment of some goal (Level 50, whatever), maybe people actually do want "work" the time to kill rats -- whatever -- and don't want to leapfrog that experience through eBay. Also, if the joy is really in the process, then those process players shouldn't care about others paying cash to essentially lose out on the process that they enjoy. The tough part for VWs is that it isn't really all about the process -- things are a lot more complex than that. Some people like the attainment, or the social recognition of the attainment, or the ability to see new things as quickly as possible. In MUDs and MMORPGs, as Richard Bartle pointed out way back when (and as this discussion demonstrates) people play for different reasons.

Well, I was saving creds in SWG to buy a house in game.. but I think instead, Ill do missions to grind XP, save the money, and ebay 500K creds for 500 dollars. Oooh.. wait.. no no, Ill work up my artisan skill and be an architect too, then I can ebay houses while Im at it... I can see it now.. PA for 500K creds or 500 dollars, then 500K creds for 500 dollars.. either way I get 500 dollars. I could do that just one time and my game expenses are paid for 6 months.. then I dont feel like im losing out of my subscription payment if I dont play alittle each day. By the time that 500 is gone, Ill have something I can sell for another 500. Imagine if everyone who played stuck auctions on ebay. The market would be flooded and the real life value of the items/cash/characters would diminish to the point that these ebay embezzlers would have to find real jobs rather than monitor a macro. Simple supply and demand... jack the supply waaay up while demand has a fairly steady rate of increase or decrease. Fight fire with fire. Better yet, don't because I want to make my 500 bux too after 2 weeks of accumulation.

Who really cares anyway? If they have the dough, then so be it...just means that they're slack, they don't challenge themselves and when someone who has honestly gained their position beats them, the deal is that much sweeter!

BTW, PA rocks! Long Live Gabe, Tycho and their MSCE certified cat!

"80 hours of work and sell $1500 of stuff on eBay. That is $18.75/hr straight-time. It's only $12.50/hr if you get paid double-time for overtime. Point is, I make more than that. No need to quit my day job."

But do you get to play games all day to make your money? Even from just that one game, it doesn't sound like a bad living to me!

It can't be that easy, can it? How big of a market is there actually? Why don't we all just quit our summer jobs and go to work from 8 to 5 on Everquest and SWG?

If anyone can actually make a good living doing this, I think they're a rare person.

Another negative is no benefits package. Gotta pay for your own medical! Than again, if you're making a truck-load, who cares.

Out of interest, how would MMORPG players feel if Lucasarts/sony etc. actually officially sold credits/items/high level character accounts, at set prices or auctions to demand. I know it'd annoy me to know the ability to progress in the game due to real world money was officially sanctioned. I suppose this is why the crackdown on auctions has happened in the past: by ignoring something like this the games company would effectively be giving it it's approval to something it is aware may upset alot of players.

"And I stand by my earlier point. While it's not for me to tell these people to stop buying/selling ingame stuff, there must be an inherent problem if playing the game WITHOUT such stuff is not fun. If I was playing D&D I wouldn't create a level 50 character when I started, I'd make a startout character, and have FUN getting the experience."

Again, your view of FUN is subjective. Notice phrases such as "when I started, I'd make a startout character..." et cetera. I pointed this out earlier. Some people enjoy having the power that comes with high level characters, but don't want to work in game to get them. So, they work in real life instead. If they want to do it, it's their choice, and just as validly 'fun' for them. Don't confuse your idea of fun with theirs.

Also, yes, if too many people do this the market for it will drop, and that's fine. If you play the game that way, you take the risk. But that doesn't mean someone interested shouldn't try it.

It looks like alot of the problems people have with the selling of items is that it 'takes away' from thier own experience.

This doesn't make any sense to me... are you all in competition with other players? Is the game just a race to see who can get the most and best stuff?

What's it matter if somebody goes out and buys a level 50 character and doesn't really know how to play? Does it affect the time and effort that you've put in to making your level 50 character? Does it take anything away from your accomplishments if you had an epic battle with a gang of monsters and got a wicked item out of it... if someone else just bought the item?

Why is it that you feel that you are better than someone who has paid for that item or that character? Do you need to feel that your better than someone else just to get enjoyment from this game? And the fact that someone can just go and buy something that would make them superior, in your eyes, lessens your enjoyment of the game... right?

I think that the problem is that alot of people asses thier worth by thier possesions and material goods, instead of the experience they recieved from acquiring those goods. And I believe that alot of people do this because they are searching for approval and confirmation of thier worth from other people... and it's alot easier to show them what you've acquired than to tell them what you have experienced.

Another problem is that they view the game and how it should be played as a competition. They do not view this game, or other oline rpgs's, as one to play in like a sandbox; were it doesn't matter what you do, how long you do it, or how you do it... as long as your are enjoying the experience. They view and play this game like as it were a race or competition. They need to level up and continue to gain experience and skills and goods and money, so that they can 'beat' the game. Because if it's just a race, the game is over once you have collected everything you can.

But I geuss you can chalk all this up to human nature and our society and eveything... we are a people that values acquiring material things, and gives values to those that have the most and best stuff. We think that the rich and famous are somehow better than the rest of us, just because they are rich and famous.

Now mind you, some people have fun acquiring everything, but thats not really because they are acquiring things (because then they feel the need to get something else), they are enjoying it because the game developers have made the time spent acquiring things enjoyable. If all you did was walk around an empty world picking up chaotic drops of items then there would probably be little enjoyment in that task. But because there is a middle ground, an illusion of gameplay, were you combat opponents and go on missions, you can derive enjoyment from it...

Which is the main problem of current MMORPG's... they are just collecting games hidden behind a facade of 'gameplay'. They have a story line in it that, on the large, nothing the thousands of people playing can affect. They have a persitent world that is static and unchanging no matter what happens inside the game - a persons actions in the game is completely inconsequential. There are set rules and limits that players will never be able to change, bend, or escape. Players will forever be limited to do what the game developers want them to do... which destroys the essence of this being a role-playing game. In a role-playing game you play with your friends on paper, in your minds, you can do anything that you want... the limitations of that type of rpg are those set by the players imagination.

Anyways, What this all comes down to is this: If you enjoy your time playing the game, then no matter what anybody does can take away from your enjoyment.

Peace Out y'all.

PS. We have to stop calling these games RPG's... call them collectors games or something, like you could get the same experience out of these games by collecting stamps... from Wookies and Storm Troopers ;)

Hrm. If SWG is still like the beta was, I'd say 100% of those sales are total rip offs. 1 mission equals about 2000 credits, and you can accomplish them in about 3 minutes. So if you want to spend a measily 3 hours, that's 180 minutes, or 120k in credits right off the bat. And frankly, that will buy you basically anything. Makes me wish I had a heart black enough to scam people myself. Almost.
-D

I don't have much to add, because just about every point has already been made somewhere in this thread, but I will say this: The sales of in-game credits/items/players/etc. will begin to ebb away as the game gets older and outdated, and as less people play the game. Just search for Diablo 2 or Everquest or some old MMORPG and you'll see that hardly anyone is buying shit for them anymore. Sure, some people will stick with the game until Sony decides to kill the servers for it, but most people will move on, without getting any of the money that they might have spent back. The people who could afford to buy their way to a great character probably won't care anyway, but this means that plugging money into a game is a waste of money. If you didn't know that, then you shouldn't be paying to play anything.

Remember though that almost everyone spends money on a hobby of some sort, and gaming is an expensive hobby by default. It just depends on how much money you want to spend on it. I personally think that leveling up characters or collecting credits as a career is silly, as is paying for already leveled up characters or credits, but it really isn't for me to say whether or not it is the MMORPG equivalent of cheating. I say let it be. I didn't want to end up giving a sermon, either, so I'll just leave it at that.

Whoever actually pays real money to get fake money is a fucking moron, PERIOD.

brob: "You can't "hack" real life to give yourself wealth, but games are different, and if game wealth translates directly into real wealth, then people will go to extremes to exploit the game in order to make real money."

-- tell this to Enron executives please. Anyone who has a problem with these auctions needs a serious dose of economics and reality.

The United States of America is a capitalist economy -- and we all know that a capitalist economy basically follows the idea, "I did the work, it's my money, so fuck you." This also applies to our own ideas -- the "Intellectual property" generated by our brains.

Admit it, you'd get pissed if you came up with some great idea (like a MMORPG, for instance), and then someone steals it, profiting from the mental strain you underwent. The same applies to the people who develop the games people are selling items for: they're the ones who created the items, they're the ones who built on the concepts, they're the ones who charged people money to enjoy the product created from their ideas. Naturally, if someone else profits from their ideas, they would be insanely pissed, and rightly so, just as you would be pissed if someone profited from your work.

But then there's the other side; the side of the people profiting from the ideas laid out and built upon by the others.... Their rationale is, "I pay X amount of dollars just to buy the CD and the box the game comes in, as well as Y amount of dollars to actually PLAY the game." Obviously, they have every right to profit from the game somehow, but they have to do it in a way that can't be construed as them stealing from the ones who are capitalizing on their own ideas. ('Cause if it IS construed as stealing, then that's illegal, and we all know what happens when we get caught doing something illegal)

In order to avoid this, all they'd really have to do is send some of the money they make from their sales, from their labors, to the people who actually make it possible for them to make said sales to begin with. Like this, the whole idea of the capitalist economy is satisfied, as both sides make some money.

Otherwise the people who actually came up with the ideas other people are profiting from to begin with will just take direct control of the auctions and cut the "other side" out of the profits altogether. And yeah, in a capitalist economy, that's what normally happens, because the whole "I did the work, it's my money, so fuck you" thing comes back into play.

OK, sorry, I think I've muddied my points somewhat. What I've been trying to put accross is these games are designed without real-money trading in mind. SO, if the only way for certain people to enjoy the game is via real-money auctions, there is something fundamentally wrong with the design of the game.

I don't have a problem with the auctions, I have a problem with the mechanics that may or may not feed the auctions: Farmers, farming away more of the resources in a game than their $10 entitles them to. Max caps on levels, wealth, and equipment aren't new ideas for games, especially online ones. They're essential to a balanced gaming enviroment. The sheer amount of resources you'd have to harvest to make a real world profit off of a recreational activity is enormous.

"-- tell this to Enron executives please. Anyone who has a problem with these auctions needs a serious dose of economics and reality."

What an odd thing to say.

"--Just search for Diablo 2 or Everquest or some old MMORPG and you'll see that hardly anyone is buying shit for them anymore."

I'm gonna have to call you out on this, just look at playerauction.com and you will see that more platinum than ever is being bought and sold. I made 3000 dollars in the month of June alone off Everquest sales and I am only working on one of around 50 servers.

SWG sales will probably last even longer because of the decay system... providing the game doesn't suck. EQ2 will be more profitable than both combined, tho.

I suggest you all look at this.

3 words!

TWO LANE BLACKTOP

To the people who save to pay to play is expensive? you got to be kidding me. 10-13 A month? is a lot? fuck i make 10$ now, so 1.5 hours of work pays for my game, that isnt a lot.
But then, you gotta put time into the game to make the investment worth it

Ok, first off, it's a video game. It's not a gambling hall. It's not an antique shop. It's not a comic book shop. It's a freakin video game. That includes every other MMORPG that's out there: Asheron's Call, Everquest, etc. The items you buy in this game will NEVER increase in value... a patch replacement may change it's qualities or invalidate its usefulness completely. So why the frick would you want to pay REAL money when you can spend FAKE money or trade for it via the actual gaming world? How desperate can you be? Christ. I'd spend $550 on a real gun, not some freakin' video game model of one. Any real money you spend on the game is ultimately lost in time.

In this sense, I am so completely bewildered by these god damn fools who are buying this stuff! If you have so much god damn money, why don't you put it to good use? Buy your kid a bike, buy some shoes, buy a display case and some weapons from the orient... or give it to charity, or something. The stuff that is bought has no value IRL, and will be lost as soon as the game dies or is patched!

Jesus, I wish the people that bought this stuff had given two seconds of thought to what they were doing. As it was said, this isn't a hobby, it's a freakin' obsession. It makes me want to set up an e-bay acct just to defraud people and make craploads of money like Alex simply by hacking together some crap and selling it back for thousands and of dollars. I could use a car.

I don't care what anyone says. People that buy this shit are idiots, and people that sell it... you just make too much damn money, and I so wish I knew you in real life so I can bash your freakin head in for defrauding people for a living.

You pay $550US for some credits in a game beta.

Thats $750 odd Australian dollars for credits in a game that have no value but some data on a companies server.

*shakes head*

No matter what anyone here says, that's gotta be one of the most fucking stupid things I've ever heard of. And, for the first time, as a "geek" myself, compels me to say this.

Get a goddamn fucking life.

So, after perusing this little soiree into what's real and what's not, and what should be paid for and what should not be, I decided to tell everyone here what this fuss is actually about.

Ever hear of CHEATING? 'Cause that's what this is. I don't care how much you play Doom 2 -- when you put on God Mode, you're still cheating. If you trian your character with some outside piece of software instead of playing the game, that's cheating. _If_ you get some kind of outside bonus for a character in a game, by not playing it, that's considered cheating. So, instead of debating on whether reality is real or not, and what money really is, maybe you people should realize one simple thing.

The people buying this stuff not only have no life, but have to spend money to pretend that they play games, to pretend they have no life.

How about this.
I pay money for a game. Just like I pay money for a DVD or CD. If I want to sell it when I am done with it, then I should be allowed to do so. SONY can put all the legal jargon they want on the contract, but if I can't sell my property when it is all over then we have really diminished our society to rentals for everything.
I paid $50 for the game and worked hard on my character. If I want to sell it, to recover some money for the next SONY game I buy, I should be allowed to do so. No wonder people try to copy games, movies, CDs. We aren't even allowed to sell the property to other people when we buy it. If SONY owns everything, why am I paying for it. Anyone who buys an account still has to pay the monthly fees and if I work hard at my account to get a good rifle or supplies then I paid that monthly fee to get it and still should be allowed to sell it. I could care less if people think it is cheating. Some of us would like to recover some of the major funds that we have to pay so we can play the next game. It doesn't matter that someone else in the game has a better rifle than you or a better character. It matters how you play the game yourself. The Star Wars Galaxy is so huge. You don't even need to interact with people if you don't want to.

SONY should listen to one thing here. If they want to sell more games, they should allow people to sell what they want. In the end, people will subscribe more if they can get what they need to play. If not, they will get apathetic about playing and quit. They are just being greedy because someone else is making some money and they want to tap into that too. When I bought the game, I figured I would play it for awhile and sell it for what I could. If I felt I didn't have that option, I wouldn't have bought it.

Sony should have an in-game brokerage system that charges a small fee for gamers who want to pay 'Real' dollars for in-game credits/merchandise. Eventually, they could have enough money to hire someone to finally make a decent Star Wars movie. (I know, I know, The Empire Strikes Back is the exception).

my comments on an above posting:

"I paid $50 for the game and worked hard on my character."

you bought a _game_ (most cost $50.00 these days), and you _played_ a game. if it was work, you would be doing something else. it wasn't work, you were having fun.

"If I want to sell it, to recover some money for the next SONY game I buy, I should be allowed to do so."

you can't do this with other forms of entertainment; cable, DSL, movies (unless you are willing to break the law there, too).

"I could care less if people think it is cheating."

it's not a matter of opinion: it IS cheating. when you press the "i agree" button to play the game, you agree to play by the rules - unless you plan on cheating, of course..

"Some of us would like to recover some of the major funds that we have to pay so we can play the next game."

if it costs so much, why do you play? because you enjoy it. if it costs a fortune to you, then DO SOMETHING ELSE! the (real) world is immense, and full of productive things to do.

"It doesn't matter that someone else in the game has a better rifle than you or a better character. It matters how you play the game yourself."

look up the term "Moral relativism".

...and my favorite:

"In the end, people will subscribe more if they can get what they need to play"

you give it all away here. you _need_ nothing. you _want_ those invisible things so badly, you'll cheat to get them.

you really have to deal with the _want_. in real life, as well as the virtual one.

honestly, how many jedi-types are truly living the non-materialistic lifestyle at the core of star war's theology?

to me, the virtual world is too close to the real world - full of the grabbing hands grabbing all they can.

If you're willing to spend this kind of money on a VIDEO GAME you should probably start re-evaluating your priorities. EverQuest got it's nickname "EverCrack" for a reason. This shit is expensive, time-consuming and I hate to break it to ya'll, but it ain't all that healthy to sit in front of a screen either.

In my experience the destruction that computers can bring to your life makes alcohol and drugs seem pretty lame in comparison.

Who the fuck are you (speaking to all those who apply) to judge how people spend their money, so long as it's legal.

"Waa waa, It's CHEATING it's CHEATING!" So? As you have so emphatically put it, it IS a game, and cheating is often part of playing a game. And besides, does it really fucking matter if they cheat, speaking in relative terms to you: NO, it doesn't.

And to judge someone saying they are a loser because they buy a character for a game rather than playing is ridiculous: all geeks of every brand are 'losers' in the only respect that stereotyping can make them. Who fucking cares? Go fuck yourself you judgemental asshole, and stop crying about the fact that you are poor and can't 'cheat' like these guys who have 500 bucks to throw around. It's their fucking money. You're in no fucking position to tell them what to do with it bitch.

You may also want to check out Game Guides Online (http://www.gameguidesonline.com/) for Everquest and SWG guides.

You may also want to check out http://www.gameguidesonline.com/GGO/ for information about Everquest and SWG guides.

I have been myself banned from SWG for selling my complete Retail Box with Account on eBay.

Since that, you can be sure that i will never buy ANYMORE stuff from Sony Corporation (and im including everything they do). I wasted 3 months of my life to make this character to get banned. Yeah. What a pleasure! The funny part is when i called my credit card compagny to ask a revert on every charge they have done for the game. I received a call from Sony after that asking me why i used my consummer rights to revert the charge. Now they are fucked up, i have 2 SWG game, played 3 months, and never paid anything!!

FUCK THEM! RIP THEM OFF! Sony is just a huge Japaneese cocksucker compagny.