Congratulations! You have successfully engaged in the basic-fundamentals of the feminist theory. The initial notion of “XY” never truly being able to understand “XX” is the main roadblock for anyone besides a female attempting to educate themselves in the realm of feminism… oh, maybe I shouldn’t talk in terms of sexual genotypes – it’s not descriptive enough to encompass the many oddities that go beyond “XXY” or even the difference between gender and sex. Perhaps I should start classifying things in terms of gender….no – the over-rated Judith Butler might get on my case about that. So where are we to begin in this recursive cycle of an argument? Where can we possibly go from here? Do we simply accept the bare-bones of feminism, the core value that it is founded upon? In doing this rejecting this article you linked under the premise of “he really doesn’t KNOW what he’s talking about. The answer is yes, maybe we do… but the fact of the matter is that the article you linked (and the man that wrote it) likely has a better understanding of feminism than the majority of people. The simple fact that he attempts to deconstructing female roles within videogames accomplished more than 99% of actual females (who by feminist law “actually understand” what they are feeling) are doing. I say take what we have… just because I may not be a woman (oh, sorry…womyn) doesn’t mean I should give up on trying to understand the opposite gender – granted I or the article linked may never TRULY understand the trials and tribulations associated with being female (much less a female gamer), but for god sakes take what you have…. Because at this point ANY exposure and ANY help from ANY gender are going to help the cause…. But you’d rather scoff at the notion that a man would even ATTEMPT such a thing. HA!

So you can keep up this image of a stone pillar (oh, better not use a phallic object) and keep rejecting everyone’s view who isn’t of your ilk. But what does that leave you with? A society who thinks tabloids are the cannon of conversation. We currently live in a time where social attraction exhibits completely unnatural and disgusting extremes in appearance that it is sickening. But just keep on rejecting…. That’s accomplishing a lot. So as it stands your team isn’t looking too good, not many all star team players to pick from – I mean, you’ve got tons of choices… but how many care or even know what you’re talking about. They’re more qualified than the Gamespot writer – so it makes it ok… Stop clinging to some appealing manifesto and realize you need and CAN choose to draft a few members who are much more educated than half of your options…. It’s up to you…. We can actually discuss Samus if you’d like…. But that’s involves getting over the introductory hike to feminism that you seem to be dwelling on…

samus is hot. there should be a nude code.

samus is hot. there should be a nude code. I'd like to check out those BOOBS.

Greg Kasavin's article, an otherwise smart writer, is marred by the fact that he misrepresents ICO. This site has done more for the world in its layout alone.

Jord... read again, Snowmit was pointing out that Kasavin said that male game producers can't represent female characters. It was an error in criticality by Kasavin, and SM picked it up.

I'm staying out of the rest of it, I did these arguments in cultural studies once, that was enough.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the article may have been written in part just to provoke conversation. Interesting to note that not a few years ago there was a debate in the superhero comicbook community as to whether female illustrators were capable of drawing males correctly; something about not being able to get the musculature or hands "right."

Criticizing ICO the way Kasavin does reads hollow to me on two points. First, the game was about a protector-protectee relationship between two characters, not about gender roles. Yorda never tries to assert her ability to protect herself, but she can do things that the boy is simply incapable of doing. The characters have different abilities that support each other. Secondly, the game is Japanese, and so comes from a culture that is still very concerned with predefined gender roles.

Perhaps the real question here is what was the target audience for the game (Metroid, et al). Assuming the game itself was not aiming to convey some idea about gender roles, character design should probably be based around ensuring the target audience finds the character interesting.

Why does it seem women are more comfortable with nudity or (to stay more relevant to the topic) revealing clothing? Lara Croft, you may have a case, but Samus? Honestly, that's a stretch. She reveals some skin as a reward for faster time, big deal. Everyone knows Samus is a bad ass across the galaxy whose determination doesn't even flinch even after falling into flowing rivers of lava, I don't think it ridicules her status as an admirable female by saying she looks great in a bathing suit too.

Beauty, brains, and power. Yeah.. definitely bad for the female image. pfft.

Men can accurately portray women if they want to and if they aren't swayed by the marketing benefits of having proportion-exaggerated sex toys prancing across the screen.

My problem isn't with Samus. Honestly, I think Samus is a pretty strong female character. Sure, she shows skin if you beat the game fast. But at the same time, none of her appeal is from her sexuality. Nintendo sells very few Metroid games off of boobs like Lara Croft does or Dead or Alive games do. Samus is simply not a sexualized character.

Honestly, my main problem is more a Japanese one. I think female characters in North American games (like Bastila from KOTOR) may not be perfect, but they are pretty strong and even close to realistic. Hell, even if Lara Croft (who is British-developed) is a walking set of breasts, at least she's an assertive, powerful walking set of breasts.

Meanwhile, many Japanese games like to portray women as needing to be saved. Or worse, in games like Xenogears, where the girls have a tendency to be pink and emit hearts when they strike a target. That's just kinda' weird.

"Meanwhile, many Japanese games like to portray women as needing to be saved. Or worse, in games like Xenogears, where the girls have a tendency to be pink and emit hearts when they strike a target. That's just kinda' weird."

I think that there are enough Japanese video games out there that you really can't make a broad generalization about their culture. Sure, there are many that have you saving the girl at some point - Xenogears, Final Fantasy Tactics, Ico, etc. But what about Samus from Metroid, Chris from Suikoden III, Trish from Devil May Cry (who saves Dante multiple times), Sniper Wolf from MGS, Fortune from MGS2 (again, SHE saves YOU), Etna and Flonne from Disgaea, Ageha from Shinobi, Rydia from FFIV (again, she saves you), or Ayla from Chrono Trigger (yeah, again)? And these are just the names that came off the top of my head in the last minute or so. There are many more, certainly enough for any example you can find of a situation where a female character had to be saved.

And how Bastila is an example of a strong female character is beyond me. In the Light Side version, she gives in against her principles at every opportunity. In the Dark Side version, she crumbles under torture and... gives in against her principles at every opportunity. Half her lines boiled down to, "I know I really shouldn't... but I'm just too damn weak-minded, so I guess I'll go ahead and do it". I think that Mission would've been a much better example of a strong female character in KOTOR. Despite having the voice and appearance of the stereotypical Japanese RPG jailbait character, she was much more willful than either Bastila or Juhani. Especially in the end of the Dark Side version, where she certainly outclassed Bastila by leaps and bounds.

First off, Jorda - What the hell are you talking about? Seriously, what the hell?

Secondly, I'd like to mention Planescape: Torment. The Tiefling and Succubus were two of the most original and well thought out characters I've ever seen in a video game, actually that's true of ninety percent of the characters in that game, they were just the most prominent females.

I think as writing moves more to the forefront of games, we'll have better written characters of both genders.

For anyone who says I'm offbase, you're not seeing the pretentious aspect of this.

""men are inherently incapable of doing an adequate job of properly presenting female characters in games". Although they are aparently capable of writing editorials denouncing the improper portrayal of women in videogames.

Leaving aside the zen koan-like nature of the article itself and the strange defeatism (heaven help us all if it's imposible for one gender to understand the other well enough to write a story about them)"

All i have to say is that Team Ninja is doing what Freud did for womens-relations in the early 1900's... setting them back many years.

All of the characters stated above are flawed, but in a time when a movie can't even properly display a female without having some trite downfall, do you really expect a videogame to? It's as good as we're going to get for a while....

Jord, it's not that I think that you're offbase, it's that I've re-read your first post at least a dozen times and aside from the general tone which seems to be "Snowmit, you are a fool" I really don't understand what you're trying to say.

Grue, you're probably right that the purpose of the editorial was to provoke discussion, but I think that setting up your flag at "Men are inherently incapable of portraying women" will almost certainly result in the wrong kind of discussion. Meaning that it will most likely lead to waves of indignant "but that's reverse sexism!" replies as opposed to thoughful meditation on the subject of gender in games. Unless the goal was to have lots of people indignantly clicking on the GameSpot editorial as a way of driving up traffic. If that's the case mission accomplished.

I'm suprised at how upset I was after reading this article on GameSpot. Specifically, after reading the paragrahs on Ico.

At no point does the designer (Fumito Ueda) say or imply that Yorda is useless because of her gender, or that she needs a man to protect her.

Now, Mr. Kasavin is partly correct: In Ico, Yorda is not able to defend herself--but this has nothing to do with her gender. It seems to me that he's applying his own predjudices to the story--namely, that a girl is useless if she isn't capable of violence.

Okay, maybe I'm overreacting, or putting words into Mr. Kasavin's mouth, but this point is what really stood out in his article. It's a shame, really, because I'm sure that his heart is in the right place.

I'm suprised at how upset I was after reading this article on GameSpot. Specifically, after reading the paragrahs on Ico.

At no point does the designer (Fumito Ueda) say or imply that Yorda is useless because of her gender, or that she needs a man to protect her.

Now, Mr. Kasavin is partly correct: In Ico, Yorda is not able to defend herself--but this has nothing to do with her gender. It seems to me that he's applying his own predjudices to the story--namely, that a girl is useless if she isn't capable of violence.

Okay, maybe I'm overreacting, or putting words into Mr. Kasavin's mouth, but this point is what really stood out in his article. It's a shame, really, because I'm sure that his heart is in the right place.

I think a lot of people are trying to get more mileage out of the "strong, smart female" as proof of a more enlightened view towards gender than they really should.

Because the real point about Samus is that the figure of the girl - the "punchline" that lets you see her under her armor at the end of the game - still serves (straight) male desire. And that's the real problem with gender in videogames - it is heavily weighted to serving the libidos of the largest segment of the market. (Do we "get" to see Bitterman in his skivvies at the end of Quake II? No, I don't think we do.) Just because "smart, strong" women are proferred as objects of male desire as often as weak, helpless ones doesn't change the essential pattern, and all you have to do is step into an E3 to see how pervasive the logic is: women are the objects of desire, and men are the desiring/"gazing" (yes, it's a film-crit-ish word, but it fits) subjects.

If you really want to improve the range of women as characters and as players, you have to give up on hitting the "male libido" button as a cheap trick to quick bucks, and take some pains to excise that logic from your game.

Snowmit--

Upon initially reading your post, it seemed to be a case of a staunch-feminist who is dwelling on the fundamentals of the theory. Specifically, the notion that men are not women - and therefore they will never truly be capable of understanding them. It was just all too reminiscent of people in high school who never bothered to read past those initial statements of the feminist theory and attached themselves to that way of thought simply for the image associated with it.

I was probably too wordy in my explanation of my problem with your post, but in the event that you’re having trouble (and no, that’s not a condescending statement) with the first comment of mine. It was more of a “regardless of race, gender or sex – if someone is qualified to expose the current situation of gender relations….by all means let them do it. The people who can recognize, much less debate something of this magnitude are fewer than those who enjoyed the N-gage”

"Because the real point about Samus is that the figure of the girl - the "punchline" that lets you see her under her armor at the end of the game - still serves (straight) male desire. And that's the real problem with gender in videogames - it is heavily weighted to serving the libidos of the largest segment of the market."

I think the part of this where people are getting separated on Metroid is that Greg's objection is a little too broad. Samus being a woman was not a "punchline" in the original game. Sure, she was in a swimsuit, but there were only so many ways to display a female character's gender on the NES. Generally, if you wanted to get the point across that they were an actual woman, instead of a man in a jumpsuit or some such, she had to be wearing a dress, or a bathing suit, or something like that. It also wasn't a punchline in Super Metroid, where you really weren't striving to see Samus in skimpy clothing, but instead just striving to see what she looks like AT ALL. Granted, her clothing was sort of skimpy, but it wasn't too skimpy, and the real point was just to see something more of her than a blonde-haired individual hidden under a suit of armor. But the GBA games are where it gets really excessive. In those, Samus's gender really becomes a punchline for the first time. The object of the speed runs and higher difficult levels isn't just to see Samus, but rather to see her on display for you. And that's really something very different than what had been done on the NES or SNES in the past.

As for Ico, I think that the words, "I never finished ICO," really sum up Greg's analysis of the game. The ending explains more of the plot and completely absolves the game of all of his complaints, but he didn't bother to see the whole thing, so he doesn't realize that. But then again, it should've been obvious to anyone who played the game for a few minutes that Yorda was only weak because she was an abused child that was being kept in a cage, rather than because she was a girl, and I'm really not sure how a game reviewer (or the average player) could miss a detail like that.

DarkZero, personally, I love Ico. I think it is a wonderful game on a variety of levels - definitely an aesthetic masterpiece and a remarkable exercise in mood.

But I don't think your defense of Yorda as a character really works. Just because the game gives a narrative pretext for Yorda's helplessness doesn't make her any less helpless - and remember, in fiction, one is likely to start with the character and work your way back to the explanations that created that character's personality.

I like Ico because it appeals to a better figure in male identity - it appeals to a value to care for the weak and to render aid, and it does so in a way that is deeply structured into the play of the game. That alone is a startling break against the "me first, everyone for themselves" logic that is part of almost every game whatever the backstory is (you may be saving the world, but you're still watching out for your own health bar and just hoping your wingman takes your hits...) In this sense, I don't find Yorda problematic. But using backstory to "explain away" a questionable representation doesn't really fly.

Is this a good time to bring up Sex and the City...?

Jord, Of course men are capable of understanding women. That's kind of the point. It's the GameSpot editorial author who seems to think that they aren't. Or at least that they aren't capable of portraying them properly. And the paradox of a world populated by men who inherently can't portray women properly but who can recognize improper portayal is too big for my tiny mind to bear.

I do think that it's pretty neat that you think I'm a staunch-feminist though.

On a realted note, how do people see Farah from Prince of Persia? She's a princess and you kind of rescue her, except that she spends most of her time getting you out of jams, and it quickly becomes apparent that the Prince is the loudmouth braggart and she's the only one with her head screwed on properly.

How about Jade from Beyond Good and Evil?

I'd like to say something about Lara Croft after reading some comments. I do NOT believe Croft is a highly sexualized character. Yes, she has huge boobs and she was made to be sexy, but she is not a slut or whore. Part of her character is that she respects herself and does not allow anyone to take advantage of her. Don't group Lara with the girls of BMX because if you actually play Tomb Raider for more than 10 minutes, you should know that they don't belong together.

I'd like to say something about Lara Croft after reading some comments. I do NOT believe Croft is a highly sexualized character. Yes, she has huge boobs and she was made to be sexy, but she is not a slut or whore. Part of her character is that she respects herself and does not allow anyone to take advantage of her. Don't group Lara with the girls of BMX because if you actually play Tomb Raider for more than 10 minutes, you should know that they don't belong together.

I'd like to say something about Lara Croft after reading some comments. I do NOT believe Croft is a highly sexualized character. Yes, she has huge boobs and she was made to be sexy, but she is not a slut or whore. Part of her character is that she respects herself and does not allow anyone to take advantage of her. Don't group Lara with the girls of BMX because if you actually play Tomb Raider for more than 10 minutes, you should know that they don't belong together.

I'd like to say something about Lara Croft after reading some comments. I do NOT believe Croft is a highly sexualized character. Yes, she has huge boobs and she was made to be sexy, but she is not a slut or whore. Part of her character is that she respects herself and does not allow anyone to take advantage of her. Don't group Lara with the girls of BMX because if you actually play Tomb Raider for more than 10 minutes, you should know that they don't belong together.

I'd like to say something about Lara Croft after reading some comments. I do NOT believe Croft is a highly sexualized character. Yes, she has huge boobs and she was made to be sexy, but she is not a slut or whore. Part of her character is that she respects herself and does not allow anyone to take advantage of her. Don't group Lara with the girls of BMX because if you actually play Tomb Raider for more than 10 minutes, you should know that they don't belong together.

well then, it was nice doing business with you :)

well then, it was nice doing business with you :)

"On a realted note, how do people see Farah from Prince of Persia? She's a princess and you kind of rescue her, except that she spends most of her time getting you out of jams, and it quickly becomes apparent that the Prince is the loudmouth braggart and she's the only one with her head screwed on properly.

How about Jade from Beyond Good and Evil?"

Both are automatically disqualified from being strong female characters by their exposed midriffs, as men might appreciate that in some sexual way. In fact, any female character in games who doesn't keep their entire body covered, save for their face is a very poor role model, regardless of what their performance in the rest of the game paints them as. If only Samus could have had a snowmobile suit on under her armor. Then I could like Metroid games again.

I just realized that the thing that bothers me about this whole issue is the use of the term "strong female character." If you take the adjective female out, you get "strong character," which, in writing and drama, typically means a fully fleshed-out, deep character, not a powerful character. Calling a female character (or any other character for that matter) strong isn't a comment on their physical/mental/emotional fortitude (or moral goodness), but rather a reflection of the depth and believability (or perhaps consistency) of that character. A strong character has a recognizable personality that includes strengths and weaknesses. Their representation on screen is compelling, making the player want to learn more about them. By that measure, there are very few strong characters (female or otherwise) in videogames, though that situation is getting better as writing becomes more valued.

This is why Ico didn't bother me, genderwise. Yorda's character was reasonably strong. Everything she did fit her character, which included being helpless some (or most) of the time. This weakness might be attibuted to her relationship with the Queen, but at the very least, it's consistent with the fairytale mood/setting of the game. As a player, I wanted to find out more about her: why was she there? who was she? where did her magical power come from? It's also worth noting that she saves Ico at the very end, carrying his limp body out of the crumbling castle, signifying that she reciprocates the care and protection that he offered her.

I can't really say off the top of my head whether there is a disparity in the number (and quality) of strong male characters versus strong female characters (by the dramatic definition). My guess is that there might be, and that would be disturbing, though logical. Male developers are certainly able to create strong female characters, but there is definitely a culture in game development of guys making games for themselves. What does it say about our culture (industry and at large) that young men view women as less important to the point where they don't bother to flesh out female characters?

The original design for Ico called for a horned girl rescuing a young boy. Did anyone who attended the GDC lecture (review by Insert Credit) recall how/why the gender got swapped?

Hey, that last observation is really interesting... neat. I dont think it would have affected the dynamic much though. If Yorda was a boy, he would probably have had the same ethereal, innocent character that would encourage you to protect him.

anyway....

I for one, think that females as videogame characters have come along way from the trappings of classic games, like Super Mario. Where Princess Peach was practically the trophy when you completed it, granted in Metroid though Samus is more or less like a trophy at the end, she can fight giant monsters like Kraid and Ridley that would frighten almost any man. She isn't getting kidnapped, and even when infected with a life threatening parasite, she doesn't prance about whining about her impending doom... she deals with it and finds a solution.

I for one, think that females as videogame characters have come along way from the trappings of classic games, like Super Mario. Where Princess Peach was practically the trophy when you completed it, granted in Metroid though Samus is more or less like a trophy at the end, she can fight giant monsters like Kraid and Ridley that would frighten almost any man. She isn't getting kidnapped, and even when infected with a life threatening parasite, she doesn't prance about whining about her impending doom... she deals with it and finds a solution.

I for one, think that females as videogame characters have come along way from the trappings of classic games, like Super Mario. Where Princess Peach was practically the trophy when you completed it, granted in Metroid though Samus is more or less like a trophy at the end, she can fight giant monsters like Kraid and Ridley that would frighten almost any man. She isn't getting kidnapped, and even when infected with a life threatening parasite, she doesn't prance about whining about her impending doom... she deals with it and finds a solution.

Reversing the tables on this discussion provides good food for thought in my opinion.

Samus definitely rocks as a female protagonist, she's tough, quick and agile. Then why, oh why, must she also wear the mantle of exotic dancer? I mean, do women gamers get the same benefits from completing Max Payne, or even Mario? So even though Samus is strong, she's also put into a submissive female role at the end of the game as a "bonus" to the heterosexual male gamer.

I don't think it's a matter of male designers not being able to properly depict female characters. I think it's their lack of insight into how these representations actually affect potential female gamers that may be their doom.

Seeing as how heterosexual men aren't going to stop viewing bikini clad women playing volleyball (using Dead or Alive Volleyball as one example) as sexy, would it have been fair to inlcude speedo (or whatever suits your tastes) clad men along with the women in order to balance the sexual interest? Or is this issue even comparable? I know, from my girlfriend, that women don't view sexuality the same way as men. So would creating a male equivalent of DOA V-ball even be as effective (in terms of popularity) as the female one? I don't think you can simply 'balance' the 'x-treme' sexuality of video games with a push in the opposite direction. Although it's not really the opposite direction is it?

It's interesting to see how there's this kind of backlash to the dominant male hegemony within videogames. And how a possible outcome of this would be the total removal of sexuality in all it's totality from videogames. This seems like it would be an entirely male point of view, stemming from the embarrassment of the hyper-sexualization of women in Tomb Raider, DOA, etc. And it would be, as said in previous posts, the result of men not 'understanding' women. I think what men have trouble understanding is that women can and are sexual creatures and enjoy being/looking sexy, Bust magazine for example, but they're not interested in being JUST sexy and a pretty face.

Thus, that brings me to my final question. When the hell is Sexy Feminist Librarian X-treme Badminton coming out for the Xbox and will it be online?

Seeing as how heterosexual men aren't going to stop viewing bikini clad women playing volleyball (using Dead or Alive Volleyball as one example) as sexy, would it have been fair to inlcude speedo (or whatever suits your tastes) clad men along with the women in order to balance the sexual interest? Or is this issue even comparable? I know, from my girlfriend, that women don't view sexuality the same way as men. So would creating a male equivalent of DOA V-ball even be as effective (in terms of popularity) as the female one? I don't think you can simply 'balance' the 'x-treme' sexuality of video games with a push in the opposite direction. Although it's not really the opposite direction is it?

It's interesting to see how there's this kind of backlash to the dominant male hegemony within videogames. And how a possible outcome of this would be the total removal of sexuality in all it's totality from videogames. This seems like it would be an entirely male point of view, stemming from the embarrassment of the hyper-sexualization of women in Tomb Raider, DOA, etc. And it would be, as said in previous posts, the result of men not 'understanding' women. I think what men have trouble understanding is that women can and are sexual creatures and enjoy being/looking sexy, Bust magazine for example, but they're not interested in being JUST sexy and a pretty face.

Thus, that brings me to my final question. When the hell is Sexy Feminist Librarian X-treme Badminton coming out for the Xbox and will it be online?

Seeing as how heterosexual men aren't going to stop viewing bikini clad women playing volleyball (using Dead or Alive Volleyball as one example) as sexy, would it have been fair to inlcude speedo (or whatever suits your tastes) clad men along with the women in order to balance the sexual interest? Or is this issue even comparable? I know, from my girlfriend, that women don't view sexuality the same way as men. So would creating a male equivalent of DOA V-ball even be as effective (in terms of popularity) as the female one? I don't think you can simply 'balance' the 'x-treme' sexuality of video games with a push in the opposite direction. Although it's not really the opposite direction is it?

It's interesting to see how there's this kind of backlash to the dominant male hegemony within videogames. And how a possible outcome of this would be the total removal of sexuality in all it's totality from videogames. This seems like it would be an entirely male point of view, stemming from the embarrassment of the hyper-sexualization of women in Tomb Raider, DOA, etc. And it would be, as said in previous posts, the result of men not 'understanding' women. I think what men have trouble understanding is that women can and are sexual creatures and enjoy being/looking sexy, Bust magazine for example, but they're not interested in being JUST sexy and a pretty face.

Thus, that brings me to my final question. When the hell is Sexy Feminist Librarian X-treme Badminton coming out for the Xbox and will it be online?

I don't know why that posted 3 times. Sorry, and my grammar's horrible. I know.

In reguard to joebun's question of 'would women like to see men sexualized in games' I've seen this question alot, and personally I can say no. I don't really want to look at men prancing around in speedos.

Not that other women might not want to, but I have always found strong characters to be a much better draw. Perhaps that's the (annoying) sterotypical view of women being more cerebral, perhaps not. I don't know.

Hell, it's not like men are not exempt from over sexulization either. Frankly I flinch when I see gigantic muscled men running around sans shirts. Particularly in games where they have no nipples. Are men actually ashamed of them or somthing? That's just too damn freaky.

On the other hand characters like Manny (Grim Fandango), Eldred (Sacrifice) or even Wario manage to hold my attention for much longer. Why? I guess it all boils down to character agian.

Most people have eye candy games where for when they just feel like having a bland simple story, lots of action and pretty characters to look at, but it's these games we end up forgetting. I'm lucky if I can remember the main character of the last Final Fantasy game I played, but I've never forgoten a 'The Longest Journey' character and I never will.

Don't even get me started on movies nowadays.

ps ugh, sorry, but you may want to take a look at how two teenaged girls have warped super sexed up male game characters for their own silliness. Is it a comentary on somthing? Or is it just stupid? Ohhhh, deep.
http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=plasticspastic

Joeburn, after reading your post three times ;), I'll just say that I'm not tooting the horn for more sexualised male characters in games. Just pointing out the absurdity of the whole sexual aspect making it into a horde cultural products - female sports stars doing playboy shoots anyone?

Additionally if as a man I cannot play a game without bikiniclad women popping up, then your first comment about men not stopping gazing at these will hold true, eternally. I find it slightly offensive that game designers, music producers and hollywood directors think that all I want to do is look at big chests as much as possible.

I'm not asking for a whole new wave of puritan game designs or highly eroticised male lead characters. Just that we look at bit more carefully at how the roles of the two sexes is cemented in culture, without us ever questioning if the representations we see are correct.

While I was waiting in line at the supermarket last night, I noticed a variety of crossword puzzle magazines. Each brand pictured a glamour model on the cover. If the covers didn't have "crossword" printed across them, I wouldn't have known what they were.

Each of the covers were nearly identical. So, if these books can only be judged by their covers, wouldn't the one with the prettiest face win?

While I was waiting in line at the supermarket last night, I noticed a variety of crossword puzzle magazines. Each brand pictured a glamour model on the cover. If the covers didn't have "crossword" printed across them, I wouldn't have known what they were.

Each of the covers were nearly identical. So, if these books can only be judged by their covers, wouldn't the one with the prettiest face win?

Try this trick out by watching television comercials with the volume off. It works the best on pharmaceutical comercials.

Some interesting points but the article split too many hairs.

Also, if ICO's Yorda is a stereotypical example of a "weak, submissive woman", then what of her mother (her captor who created the fortress and the game's main villain)?

Had the writer actually bothered to finish the game, he may have had more of an idea of what he was talking about.

After reading most of these posts, I have come upon one general theme: Samus is a strong character who females can identify with, yet some still have a problem with her being scantily clad under her suit...

My answer to that is this: In the old NES and SNES world, I would only assume it is difficult to create a decent pixelization of a woman if she did not have either been scantily clad, or prominent curves. Sure, you can create lengthy hair and a decent looking face, but what about a woman with short hair, covered in a full body suit with a unisex name? If they somehow revealed that character's gender, many would most likely think, "That's a woman?"

Now, for the arguement on today's games being gender-biased, I can agree some have gone too far with animating, and I'm all for more female gamers, equality and the like. However, gaming all started with some GUY in his basement putting together components. When gaming became more, I do not believe many women actually found it fun or cool. I don't think women really cared all that much, and probably thought, "Let the boys have their toys." Nowadays, it seems women MUST be portrayed and integrated into games, because it isn't "fair" to be made out into sex icons and marketing schemes. My whole point is that women are not the market for games, and they have not been for as long as I can remember. If women don't like how they are being portrayed, I implore them to come and change it, but any female I ask to get into the game industry either tells me, "That's kid's stuff" or "I don't know how to animate/draw/program! It's too hard!"

In my eyes, women have become upset over something they did not create nor created by a female. When asked to change it, they fall back on the stereotypes they seem to hate so much. Granted, there are exceptions to everything I have said, but not enough to be really considered mainstream.

After reading most of these posts, I have come upon one general theme: Samus is a strong character who females can identify with, yet some still have a problem with her being scantily clad under her suit...

My answer to that is this: In the old NES and SNES world, I would only assume it is difficult to create a decent pixelization of a woman if she did not have either been scantily clad, or prominent curves. Sure, you can create lengthy hair and a decent looking face, but what about a woman with short hair, covered in a full body suit with a unisex name? If they somehow revealed that character's gender, many would most likely think, "That's a woman?"

Now, for the arguement on today's games being gender-biased, I can agree some have gone too far with animating, and I'm all for more female gamers, equality and the like. However, gaming all started with some GUY in his basement putting together components. When gaming became more, I do not believe many women actually found it fun or cool. I don't think women really cared all that much, and probably thought, "Let the boys have their toys." Nowadays, it seems women MUST be portrayed and integrated into games, because it isn't "fair" to be made out into sex icons and marketing schemes. My whole point is that women are not the market for games, and they have not been for as long as I can remember. If women don't like how they are being portrayed, I implore them to come and change it, but any female I ask to get into the game industry either tells me, "That's kid's stuff" or "I don't know how to animate/draw/program! It's too hard!"

In my eyes, women have become upset over something they did not create nor created by a female. When asked to change it, they fall back on the stereotypes they seem to hate so much. Granted, there are exceptions to everything I have said, but not enough to be really considered mainstream.

After reading most of these posts, I have come upon one general theme: Samus is a strong character who females can identify with, yet some still have a problem with her being scantily clad under her suit...

My answer to that is this: In the old NES and SNES world, I would only assume it is difficult to create a decent pixelization of a woman if she did not have either been scantily clad, or prominent curves. Sure, you can create lengthy hair and a decent looking face, but what about a woman with short hair, covered in a full body suit with a unisex name? If they somehow revealed that character's gender, many would most likely think, "That's a woman?"

Now, for the arguement on today's games being gender-biased, I can agree some have gone too far with animating, and I'm all for more female gamers, equality and the like. However, gaming all started with some GUY in his basement putting together components. When gaming became more, I do not believe many women actually found it fun or cool. I don't think women really cared all that much, and probably thought, "Let the boys have their toys." Nowadays, it seems women MUST be portrayed and integrated into games, because it isn't "fair" to be made out into sex icons and marketing schemes. My whole point is that women are not the market for games, and they have not been for as long as I can remember. If women don't like how they are being portrayed, I implore them to come and change it, but any female I ask to get into the game industry either tells me, "That's kid's stuff" or "I don't know how to animate/draw/program! It's too hard!"

In my eyes, women have become upset over something they did not create nor created by a female. When asked to change it, they fall back on the stereotypes they seem to hate so much. Granted, there are exceptions to everything I have said, but not enough to be really considered mainstream.

After reading most of these posts, I have come upon one general theme: Samus is a strong character who females can identify with, yet some still have a problem with her being scantily clad under her suit...

My answer to that is this: In the old NES and SNES world, I would only assume it is difficult to create a decent pixelization of a woman if she did not have either been scantily clad, or prominent curves. Sure, you can create lengthy hair and a decent looking face, but what about a woman with short hair, covered in a full body suit with a unisex name? If they somehow revealed that character's gender, many would most likely think, "That's a woman?"

Now, for the arguement on today's games being gender-biased, I can agree some have gone too far with animating, and I'm all for more female gamers, equality and the like. However, gaming all started with some GUY in his basement putting together components. When gaming became more, I do not believe many women actually found it fun or cool. I don't think women really cared all that much, and probably thought, "Let the boys have their toys." Nowadays, it seems women MUST be portrayed and integrated into games, because it isn't "fair" to be made out into sex icons and marketing schemes. My whole point is that women are not the market for games, and they have not been for as long as I can remember. If women don't like how they are being portrayed, I implore them to come and change it, but any female I ask to get into the game industry either tells me, "That's kid's stuff" or "I don't know how to animate/draw/program! It's too hard!"

In my eyes, women have become upset over something they did not create nor created by a female. When asked to change it, they fall back on the stereotypes they seem to hate so much. Granted, there are exceptions to everything I have said, but not enough to be really considered mainstream.

I wouldn't suggest drawing any larger conclusions just because boys in the videogames industry don't understand women. Not to sound too stereotypical or anything, but men in the gaming business don't understand the girls for the same reason as the men in the comics business: they're nerds. They haven't actually talked to a real female.

Again, not to make wisecracks, but there's a reason the women who hit the local bars and clubs in, oh, Minneapolis (where I live), don't walk over the Software, Etc. store next door.

Not that videogames are inherently nerdy, or doomed to childish T&A drawn by 30-year-old virgins, but the cult of cartoon-doll pinups has long dominated, and will for the forseeable future. You're going to have to change the whole business from the inside out. Of course, we'd have to do something about our narcisstic Ken-and-Barbie culture while we're at it, but that's another subject altogether.

Anyway, great website, great topics. Best of luck.

first off, a lot of games are made in japan. that country doesn't exactly have a whole hate for intelligent males. there are otaku, given, but it's not like saved by the bell there with regards to social class. in fact, often, great atheletes are found in the business sector.
the whole thing about samus being scantally clad is nothing really. i mean, i've seen more at the beach. the shock value of seeing that for the first time on nes was that you were like, "is that a robot dude? or possibly some cyborg dude?" suddenly, capcom threw us a curveball and said, "no! you've been a female this whole time. and i'll tell you, no male to date could stand up to this female." and most ssbm players will agree. at the same time, she IS female. there is nothing wrong with a woman being feminine. she's not bending over backwards covered in oil or anything. you can't imagine she was wearing a dress under that armour anyways, right? plus, i like to think that if i was a girl, i'd be as pretty as samus.

jpb ppyt psycholog zdrowa żywność nieruchomości projektowanie stron agencja reklamowa soczewki kontaktowe nauka angielskiego agroturystyka opony klimatyzacja domy opieki akupunktura hydraulik projektowanie wnętrz soha jpk paa ki wypadki tfrd jh sw jft pp fdr

Posted by: outsider on April 11, 2006 09:04 AM