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June 30, 2004
Vacation
I'm tired. I'm tired of being online. Tired of comments about my personal and professional life from people who have never met me. I need a vacation from morons like this fellow, who writes in that "Your website is misleading": "what the fuck my friend linked me to gamegirladvance and i was expecting you fuken fags don't make a website with "girl" in the url unless it's porn - Robert Morgan [smeg_in_the_head@hotmail.com] Yeah, okay. Thanks for the tip, buddy. Sigh. I'm tired of the spam. Spam in my mailbox, in the comments. It seriously makes me almost cry. When there's something you've built up, it breaks your heart to have idiots piss all over it. I'm going to France for five weeks. During that time, GGA will be on vacation, sort of, until I decide what to do with it. I'll still post when I can and when I'm inspired; Justin and Clockwork and Bowler and you guys will all post too, as you feel like it. But we'll take it easy this summer and relaunch in September, probably with a different format. I may take away comments, or force registration. I hate to close down the dialogue, but it's driving me insane. If any of you have good ideas about how to handle comment spam better, I'd love to hear them. Thanks, and see you all in August. Have a lovely July. Posted by jane at June 30, 2004 02:35 PM | TrackBackComments
Don't let 'em get you down. You've got to remember, people who have something bad to say will say it often more than people who have something good to say. Someone likes the site, they'll link it to friends, never say a word to you. Someone hates it, they'll piss all over it. But, hey, this site is probably one of the most intellectual ones on the internet. There are conversations about games as literature, gender politics, and a whole mess of other stuff. You guys even gave me my game reporting start. So chin up, enjoy France, and forced registration for comments may not be a terrible idea. And honestly, if the man looked hard enough, there's a feature on this site that ranks as maybe the best video game/sex story in known history. But I'll leave well enough alone. Enjoy the vacation! Posted by: Mike on June 30, 2004 02:46 PMSorry, to hear about the dumba**es out there getting you down. I hope you have a great and restful time in France. Just to let you know I am for the forced registration. If this happens to show up more than once, I apologize now. Posted by: Charmaine on June 30, 2004 02:55 PMSorry, to hear about the dumba**es out there getting you down. I hope you have a great and restful time in France. Just to let you know I am for the forced registration. If this happens to show up more than once, I apologize now. Posted by: Charmaine on June 30, 2004 02:57 PMSorry, to hear about the dumba**es out there getting you down. I hope you have a great and restful time in France. Just to let you know I am for the forced registration. If this happens to show up more than once, I apologize now. Posted by: Charmaine on June 30, 2004 02:58 PMIf you have a chance, check out Cyberville by Stacy Horn. It talks about her experiences starting an early online community, how she handled jerks and policing, etc.. It may offer some answers, or at the very least, encouragement. One of the book's conclusions is that the Internet shouldn't be perceived as a utopia. Assholes are universal (and have computers too). Hang in there! Posted by: maiku on June 30, 2004 03:53 PMI've loved your site for over a year. It's insightful, witty, and always keeps me entertained. Don't let assholes and spammers force you off the web, or even question your purpose. What you do here is pretty unique, and I would miss it if it was gone. Posted by: skye on June 30, 2004 03:56 PMI am really sorry to hear that this has you down - though I can't blame you. One can only take so much crap from ungrateful and disrespectful (and sexist homophobes). That guy just wishes he had something as interesting to do as going off to France! Pathetic, really. Feel free to make us register... I can't imagine any of us really minding... bon voyage! Lisa Posted by: Lisa Galarneau on June 30, 2004 08:20 PMHey Jane, I, too, am sorry about the experiences you've had with comments and email. It would be sad to lose such a great community because of spam and jerks. I would hate to lose the chance to have open discussion and if necessary would be more than willing to register if that's what it came down to. Posted by: dr. b. on June 30, 2004 09:40 PMIt is really really depressing. I also run a site and have gotten pissed on in all kinds of ways from rude e-mails to having my domain abused by companies for sending spam. It really makes you realize how there is no shortage of a**holes in the world :-( But, your site is great! I check out every entry so let's try to ignore the jerks and just enjoy the good people. Posted by: gman on June 30, 2004 09:44 PMHey now, don't let hosers like that get you down! Think of it this way; that fellow's life is so empty and void of all purpose that he had nothing better to do then send you hurtful comments. What a loser, eh? :) By the way, this is the first time I've ever posted a comment here; I've been reading your site ever since Penny Arcade linked to your bit on Rez, however, and I've enjoyed the high level of video game discussion I've found here. Keep up the good work! :D Posted by: Cody on June 30, 2004 09:53 PMi wanna give you a hug, even though I don't know you personally or professionally. See? We don't all suck. Posted by: Zordran on June 30, 2004 10:05 PMWell, that comment is just laughably stupid, but I guess the fact that it got to you is definitely proof that it's time for a break. Hope to see you back. Posted by: A reader on June 30, 2004 10:37 PMI have enjoyed your site for months now via LJ. I would be sad if it went away but if it doesn't bring you joy anymore ... anyway, have a great trip and I hope everything looks better afterwards. Bon voyage! Posted by: Kit on June 30, 2004 11:26 PMWelcome to the internet. Posted by: Bob on July 1, 2004 12:28 AMI'm sorry you have to deal with jerks like that, especially since it sounds like you have to do it frequently. It goes to show how sad those people are, that they can only lash out in such a juvenile way anonimously. It also shows how little they have going on upstairs. There's notihg wrong with criticism done thoughtfully and intelligently, but what losers like that say don't even really count as criticism, it's more like the rantings of a foul mouthed eight year old. Regardless of all that, you deserve a break. Not because these jerks forced you into one, but because you really have put together one of the most thought provoking video game sites I've ever seen. No one has to be a woman to appreciate what you've done here, they just have to be intelligent. Your site sets an example that I wish other websites and video game magazines would follow. Your site discusses games the way some sites discuss art or theater. I hope once you are back from your vacation you will continue your site in whatever format you need to. It would be a loss to the gaming community to lose such a great site. I hope the ramblings of some cowardly jerks don't chase you away from the net forever. But, do whatever makes you happy, and keep playing. Hopefully some of us will get to play with you online in some game or another. Posted by: Dave on July 1, 2004 12:33 AMFrom my experience with Machinima.com, forced registration does very little harm and a good deal of good spam-removal wise. I suspect, by encouraging buy-in, it actually helps foster a sense of community. And it gives a nice sense of how popular your community is as the numbers slowly go up a la Diablo. And just to add to the chorus of praise - GGA is a fantastic site. I don't have time to check too many blogs, but this one's on the regular to-check list. A good deal of my job depends on catching interesting stuff happening with games, and GGA's been responsible for more than its fair share of hurried, excitable notes in my ideas file or my own blog. Posted by: Hugh "Nomad" Hancock on July 1, 2004 05:05 AMAnother long-time reader, infrequent poster here. Have fun in France, and enjoy your well-deserved break. It would be a shame to lose your excellent insights on gaming and culture, so don't let the d*ckhead trolls of the 'net get you down. I'll also add that registering would not be a problem with me, as long as I get dibs on the userID "JaneRocks"! Posted by: Dave P. on July 1, 2004 05:53 AMIf you really want peace, remove the Rez+Vibrator story. It's the only story that drives people to this place anyways. Posted by: x2 on July 1, 2004 06:26 AMIf you really want peace, remove the Rez+Vibrator story. It's the only story that drives people to this place anyways. Posted by: x2 on July 1, 2004 06:27 AMJust wanted to add my post to the "we love you, have a good vacation, please don't shut the site down" pile. This site is one of the few things that makes me feel good about playing games as a hobby. When so many people, websites, magazines, TV shows, movies, etc. portray video games as an outlet for sexual frustration, a pastime for the emotionally stunted or immature, or the cause of violence and depravity in our nation's youth, it can really start to eat away at your self esteem. Thanks for letting me feel a little better about myself and how I choose to spend my free time. Posted by: Jason on July 1, 2004 06:52 AMEventually spam can simply take over an email account, and there is no recourse - legal or otherwise. You've got my sympathy there. The email addy I'm leaving here isn't even a real one, it's a NYM address that while functional, it's seperate from my real one and can be deleted with a button click to stop incoming spammers. The net went mainstream, and with it came a lot of undesirables. Sure that sounds elitist - but when you get messages like that one, who can't help but claim a bit of superiority over someone who only interacts with the net on a masturbatory level? I abandoned my old email address a few weeks ago, and now have an auto response to curse all the spammers who still go there ( http://wiki.beyondunreal.com/wiki/RegularX/Spam_Response ) ... may they rot in hell. Posted by: RegularX on July 1, 2004 06:52 AMhi, i'm new here. i just want to mention that i find your site to be a refreshing alternative to the status quo of gaming news. thanks for what you've done so far. hope it continues. :) Posted by: zoarre on July 1, 2004 10:42 AMlol fags Posted by: Robert Morgan on July 1, 2004 12:22 PMJane, you've got a good, smart site here, and (as Bill Clinton would say) I feel your pain re spam, sexist troglodytes and whatnot. Still, Jane, you had to know what was coming (no pun intended) when you posted the Rez/Vibrator story - complete with pics of you in your undies, I might add. I thought it was an interesting, funny tale... but you were ringing the dinner bell for Internet lowlife and you know it. As for "I may take away comments, or force registration. I hate to close down the dialogue, but it's driving me insane," I hope you don't. However, if you do keep the "dialogue," please fix it. Seriously. GGA has the most dysfunctional comment system I have ever seen for an online journal/blog/etc. The delay between clicking POST and the appearance of one's comment is long enough to cook dinner - and I mean a real dinner, not microwaved Hot Pockets. That's assuming the post doesn't just vanish into the ether, freeze your browser, or trick you into additional POST clicks which result in multiple appearances of the same text. (See Charmaine's post in this thread. Or for that matter, see just about any thread on GGA.) It's your call, of course. Have fun in France. Posted by: BrainFromArous on July 1, 2004 01:01 PMI get spam e-amils and stupid comments myuself, but I take some satisfaction from knowing that I have better things to do with my time than this loser who sends stupid-ass e-mails then re-visits the site to see if he actually stirred up any shit. He's just seeking validation for his miserable existence. Probably hasn't gotten laid in years, poor thing. No wonder he wants to lash out at women, by calling them fags, no less. He's so confused. You, on the other hand, have an excellent, intelligent, and best of all, free website going on, which people read and enjoy. Have fun on your vacation, you've earned it. Posted by: Ken on July 1, 2004 01:15 PMjust wanted to throw in my support too. I love this site. As a member of the development community this site more than any other gives me hope for the future of the artform. Please dont quit. requireing registration is just fine with me as long as you don't distribute the registration info to spammers. While I may suffer withdrawl from the time off, do enjoy it so you can come back refreshed. Posted by: eric 0 on July 1, 2004 01:35 PMlol fags Posted by: Robert Morgan on July 1, 2004 01:36 PMlol fags Posted by: Robert Morgan on July 1, 2004 01:37 PMwoah this comment thing is messed up
Yep, comment registration would be a good thing. Have a nice vacation! Posted by: Berklee on July 1, 2004 03:04 PMYeah, if you fix the comment system you will at the same time improve discussion on the site and actually *help* the community... Joel Spolsky has a good article on this sort of thing: So, require registration to comment (but not read), separate forums from the articles, and yeah, well, you're still screwed on the spam... Maybe you could feed all of this particular type of email to a more advanced spam filter program to have it learn the patterns involved ("naked chicks" appearing close to "fags", for instance)? Posted by: Bored on July 1, 2004 05:46 PMJane, it's a great site. I really hope that you don't need all our comments to know this, but just in case, I'll say it again: great, intelligent site ;-) In terms of comment registration, if you need to, go for it. There are spam removal tools out there (I quite like MT-Blacklist if you're using MT) but those can't stop the nasty comments from real people trying hard to troll. I get a lot of homophobic bullshit from those who stumble on my weblog (through searches for "lesbian *" I imagine), but personally I just ban their IPs and occasionally let their hosts know if they're being particularly bad (e.g. sending me threating emails). Don't remove the story that brought so many of us here. At the end of the day, no amount of barrier is going to stop a dick making himself look like a dick in (anon) public if he really wants to. I mean look at the chap who sent you that email LOL. And Google will remember that article for a while, so I doubt you'll be able to escape that legacy particularly effectively. Posted by: Meri on July 1, 2004 10:15 PMRichard, for the record you can't really call a girl a fag. Dyke maybe, but not fag. Your lack of understanding of basic gender makes me wonder if you're 15 years old and just starting to worry about your sexuality, based on your reactions to the men in all that porn you're looking at. See a therapist. They get paid to listen to your crap, Jane and the rest of the web doesn't. I really hope that if/when you grow up, the next job you apply for they search for your name and find your comments here. Posted by: pointandlaugh on July 1, 2004 10:23 PMRegistration might be a good idea. I doubt that anyone who frequently reads GGA will have a problem with that. As for the assholes: I know how irritating it can be. But hey, that Robert guy for instance, the one that has smeg in his head instead of brains (see his email address)...Honestly, how serious should you take a guy like that? Enjoy your holiday! :-) Thanks for the site, Have fun in France, enjoy the pastries and wine. Silly troll, fag+women = women.. sprite the distincly not fag. Enjoy your vacation, Jane! Just wanted to add my thanks and appreciation for GGA. I thouroughly enjoy the level of discourse here. I'd be all for registration, if that's what it takes to keep things going. On the other hand, I can totally believe that running a site like this has to be a major labor of love and could be hugely draining. Perhaps, as you relaunch, there might be ways to organize the management of the site so it doesn't rest completely on your shoulders. You've created an incredible community here, and I'm sure many of us would jump at the chance to help you out in whatever capacity we could (I know I would). Of course, it's your site and your decision. Have a great time in France. Posted by: Clubberjack on July 2, 2004 08:59 AMwhat a bunch of asskissers holy shit Posted by: Robert Morgan on July 2, 2004 01:15 PMFor a guy that really hates this website for "fags," he sure does read this site and comment on this story a whole lot. The implications of someone reading a site they say is for fags are immediately obvious, I think. Posted by: Average Joe on July 2, 2004 02:21 PMThere is no reason Jane should remove the Rez article, and it would be a sign of defeat to do so. As for this Robert fellow, didn't 'check back' eh? Huh, that makes you, well, wrong. Again. If you wanna be made fun of so desprately hit http://www.heartless-bitches.com, them ladies will take care of you somthing good. Enjoy France, eat food, or whatever it is they do there. Annoy natives. Posted by: SpindleBoard on July 2, 2004 02:31 PMWhat is this? A pity party? Grow up. Life's full of unpleasantries. Part of being an adult about things is learning to deal with disappointments and moving on to better things. Expecting that the world will welcome your work with warm fuzzy feelings and no negativity is simply naive. There are lots of ways to deal with spam. If you want options, I can help. Spam is undercontrolled for me. This address I use have been around for almost a decade and I still use it for online communities as well as my primarily contact. Posted by: Grail on July 2, 2004 03:11 PMI think a pity party is the wrong thing to call it. Instead, it's an opportunity to acknowledge that someone has created a site that leads to some degree of enjoyment for many of us. I don't think it's at all unexpected for members of a group to rally to support someone who's work they appreciate. Count another vote of those who appreciate GGA and hope Jane is able to continue with it... Posted by: chris on July 2, 2004 10:18 PMI agree with chris. I'm not posting out of pity for Jane, I'm posting out of a desire to not see this website go away because I really like it and really like reading what people have to say about games. Posted by: Snowmit on July 3, 2004 08:52 AMEven though I don't post here much I've been enjoying the site for about a year or so now, and I know I don't want to see it go away. An improved comment system would probably be a good place to start in fixing it up a bit, and forced registration wouldn't be a problem at all with me. Having some sort of registration system would make the idiots more managable, and those of us that want to have discussions would be allowed to. Posted by: Mr. Mechanical on July 3, 2004 02:40 PMI love your site. Anyone who takes the time say they want porn on such a site, well... I'm sure they just don't get out very often. Your site is amazing. Keep it up. Oh, I'll be looking for ya in Austin this September. Posted by: Cog on July 3, 2004 03:00 PMThere are lots of idiots and block-headed mooks out there and it can be seriously deflating. Just yesterday I got reviews back on a paper I submitted to a conference that said I had no idea what I was talking about which, objectively isn't the case as the same material got me a fairly significant scholarly fellowship, an art commission and a request to do a post-doc. Nevertheless, seeing that sort of comment (particularly an anonymous comment) is extremely deflating. Of course I try to disregard it, but it still smarts. Take the vacation and know that you are doing very solid, extremely smart, and very prescient work here! Posted by: julian on July 4, 2004 08:48 AMThere are lots of idiots and block-headed mooks out there and it can be seriously deflating. Just yesterday I got reviews back on a paper I submitted to a conference that said I had no idea what I was talking about which, objectively isn't the case as the same material got me a fairly significant scholarly fellowship, an art commission and a request to do a post-doc. Nevertheless, seeing that sort of comment (particularly an anonymous comment) is extremely deflating. Of course I try to disregard it, but it still smarts. Take the vacation and know that you are doing very solid, extremely smart, and very prescient work here! Posted by: julian on July 4, 2004 11:06 AMHey, I've been lurking for a while and just wanted to surface to say how much I appreciate GGA. So, uh...I appreciate GGA [ ] much! Posted by: GARETH on July 5, 2004 08:23 AMAre you suggesting a move towards some sort of controlled system where expression will be limited to those who are blessed? Why not let people say what they want to say and let the audience figure it out? You know, spam filter meets blog comments. Posted by: Grail on July 6, 2004 01:44 AMI can understand how aggervating people such as the one you described can be. However what you are experiencing is simply a fact of the internet. You are exposing your thoughts and your feelings within your body of work. Since these are being made public by this website, people are going to comment on them bottom line. Some of these comments are kind, some you might not agree with, some are just plain asnine, even though you are upset keep in mind that this situation isn't unique to you. Afterall the internet isn't just for smart people anymore. When you go live with what is essentially a window into certain aspects of your life, and allow comments you should be thick skinned enough to be able to handle what people might say. I have trouble understanding why someone like you goes through the trouble to put up a website and a web log both of which feature obvious attempts of yours to fish for complements and comments, yet you are the one who complains when you get complements which differ from your ideals of your image, and your opinions. (Not just lashing out against morons like the ones discussed in this editorial.) If you can't handle peer review, either disable the comment feature and be done with it, or end your involment with the site if you are indeed that emotionally fragile. Posted by: PS2_INFORMANT on July 6, 2004 08:21 PMFor some reason over the weekend I ended up with 4-8 spam comments per entry on my blog, also an MT blog. The solution? Upgrade to MT version 3.0 D. I did it in about 15 minutes time, and then took advantage of a new partnership they have with TypeKey which is a free registration service to stop comments spam. Yes, those of us that comment on your site will have to sign up (free) with TypeKey, but you won't have to face endless amounts of spam anymore, and you can force people to leave a confirmed active email address with each post. Pretty nice for anyone that has been suffering from the latest popular spam craze. Posted by: Sarabellum on July 7, 2004 07:37 AMFor some reason over the weekend I ended up with 4-8 spam comments per entry on my blog, also an MT blog. The solution? Upgrade to MT version 3.0 D. I did it in about 15 minutes time, and then took advantage of a new partnership they have with TypeKey which is a free registration service to stop comments spam. Yes, those of us that comment on your site will have to sign up (free) with TypeKey, but you won't have to face endless amounts of spam anymore, and you can force people to leave a confirmed active email address with each post. Pretty nice for anyone that has been suffering from the latest popular spam craze. Posted by: Sarabellum on July 7, 2004 07:38 AMGGA, is possibly the best Video game Journalism site I have ever seen. The writers are erudite, and informed. The conversation is lively and on point. The Subjects are all innovative, and up to date on the newest trends in the gaming world. The articles have expanded my mind, they have changed gaming into a new and vibrant art form. For me, this bastion of thinking gamers, and smart women is a welcome relief from much more juvenial and hopelessly masoginistic areas of the internet. Have a nice Vacation, let the sweet sunshine soak into your skin. Let the air fill you with aromatic hope. Look to the open road and remember: Your world is your own; bend your mind to it and you can shake things up, you can change the world. Take a vacation, get away from the screen for awhile, no one's gonna be mad about that. But this victim, self-pity psychology that you're wallowing in lately is very high-school blogger. I'm sure your problems are very real. I'm also sure that the span is annoying. What I'm not sure of is why you bother to whine about everything. Don't feel like posting? Don't post, instead of boring us all with megadoses of teenage angst. Don't like the comments? Turn them off. Don't expect everyone to maintain some sort of bizarre tea party etiquette on your site. The fact of the matter is that these are ONLINE sites, where you've thrown anonymity to the wayside, opened up about personal stuff, and invited others to discuss. Obviously you get your fair share of ass-kissing, so your weird persecution complex smacks of cliche fit-pitching. It sucks to be depressed and unhappy. It also sucks to read months of self-indulgent whines. And it sucks even more to observe your overt hostility to any of your guests who dares to question you or break from the mind-numbing ass-kissing. You may not be writing FOR other people, but you are writing TO them. Your site is read by other people, and you can't control what they think about it, deal with it. And based on the number of comments, your site is read by a lot of other people, which is usually a good thing. You hold a privileged position in life and you hold a privileged position on the web. Obviously both are yours, and you can do with them what you see fit. Whining about how hard both of them are is a total waste. If it's so hard, don't bother, and then you don't have to worry about it. Posted by: vainglorious on July 9, 2004 12:11 PMTake a vacation, get away from the screen for awhile, no one's gonna be mad about that. But this victim, self-pity psychology that you're wallowing in lately is very high-school blogger. I'm sure your problems are very real. I'm also sure that the spam is annoying. What I'm not sure of is why you bother to whine about everything. Don't feel like posting? Don't post, instead of boring us all with megadoses of teenage angst. Don't like the comments? Turn them off. Don't expect everyone to maintain some sort of bizarre tea party etiquette on your site. The fact of the matter is that these are ONLINE sites, where you've thrown anonymity to the wayside, opened up about personal stuff, and invited others to discuss. Obviously you get your fair share of ass-kissing, so your weird persecution complex smacks of cliche fit-pitching. It sucks to be depressed and unhappy. It also sucks to read months of self-indulgent whines. And it sucks even more to observe your overt hostility to any of your guests who dares to question you or break from the mind-numbing ass-kissing. You may not be writing FOR other people, but you are writing TO them. Your site is read by other people, and you can't control what they think about it, deal with it. And based on the number of comments, your site is read by a lot of other people, which is usually a good thing. You hold a privileged position in life and you hold a privileged position on the web. Obviously both are yours, and you can do with them what you see fit. Whining about how hard both of them are is a total waste. Posted by: vainglorious on July 9, 2004 12:18 PMTake a vacation, get away from the screen for awhile, no one's gonna be mad about that. But this victim, self-pity psychology that you're wallowing in lately is very high-school blogger. I'm sure your problems are very real. I'm also sure that the spam is annoying. What I'm not sure of is why you bother to whine about everything. Don't feel like posting? Don't post, instead of boring us all with megadoses of teenage angst. Don't like the comments? Turn them off. Don't expect everyone to maintain some sort of bizarre tea party etiquette on your site. The fact of the matter is that these are ONLINE sites, where you've thrown anonymity to the wayside, opened up about personal stuff, and invited others to discuss. Obviously you get your fair share of ass-kissing, so your weird persecution complex smacks of cliche fit-pitching. It sucks to be depressed and unhappy. It also sucks to read months of self-indulgent whines. And it sucks even more to observe your overt hostility to any of your guests who dares to question you or break from the mind-numbing ass-kissing. You may not be writing FOR other people, but you are writing TO them. Your site is read by other people, and you can't control what they think about it, deal with it. And based on the number of comments, your site is read by a lot of other people, which is usually a good thing. You hold a privileged position in life and you hold a privileged position on the web. Obviously both are yours, and you can do with them what you see fit. Whining about how hard both of them are is a total waste. Posted by: vainglorious on July 9, 2004 12:19 PMGGA has gone well beyond the "blog with anonymous comments" level, I don't think moving to a registration system would hurt at all. While it won't solve all the issues(unfortunately it's usually a handful of people that cause 99% of an admin's stress), it may raise the barrier to entry just enough to deter the casual abuser. Anyway, just wanted to say I'm a fan of what you and the rest of the crew have done with the site. Enjoy your vacation. Posted by: ChrisA on July 12, 2004 09:59 AMHi jpb ppyt psycholog zdrowa żywność nieruchomości projektowanie stron agencja reklamowa soczewki kontaktowe nauka angielskiego agroturystyka opony klimatyzacja domy opieki akupunktura hydraulik projektowanie wnętrz soha jpk paa ki wypadki tfrd jh sw jft pp fdr Posted by: outsider on April 11, 2006 09:28 AM
This site is professional and to the point. on December 29, 2006 08:33 AM
zertifizierung in Russland zertifizierung GOST on December 30, 2006 11:35 PM
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