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02/11/2004

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Draigon

"I'm curious if this is a fad, or if like rock-n-roll, it's here to stay."

Was there intentional irony that would you say that when talking about Mtv and hip-hop? :)

I can't really say I see much of a relationship. It's game-inspired art, but ultimately that's completely irrelevant to gaming itself because it holds no influence on gaming. Game-inspired art is good for game-inspired art. The Red Hot Chili Peppers video from years back or the Bjork video for Hyperballad come to mind. That's good art, but it's strictly a visual animation; it requires no decision making therefore has no influence on gaming.

The same can't be said about music and video. Those were two seperate mediums that were combined and now they both influence each other. There are more visually-minded artists and music is approached differently when used in movies or television now. They directly influence each other and the relationship is symbiotic.

That's not the case with gaming. The day I see a bands release a video games as an expression of art is when I'll see a direct relationship. Games use music for expression, but music does not use games for expression. Game-inspired visuals, yes, but that's not the same thing.

Not sure if I explained this right. Here's the part where everyone tells me about Mtv music generator or Parapa the rapper and think they get what I'm talking about. :P

Carter

I guess this is relative. My problem with this is that I have always personally found Video Games to be socially acceptable. However I find Hip-Hop and Hoochie-Mamas to be socially UNacceptable, therefore I have a hard time seeing this as progress. ;)

And aren't the last couple years of Square-Enix games their own kind of MTV-Pop culture in Japan?

zod

Remember when Kayslay was Dez in Style Wars?

SpittingTrashcan

Actually, Draigon, I think I do understand what you're getting at. Games (well, not all games) use music as one of several means to deliver an overall experience. The music is incorporated to enhance the experience of the game, but it is not central. This is also the case with music in film: the music contributes to and enhances the central film experience. However, there are also motion-visual add-ons designed to enhance and contribute to a musical experience: a music video, or opera. (Opera may not seem like a correct example, but consider that an opera's music can stand on its own while its visuals cannot.)

What you are saying, then, is that there is no analogous example wherein music is the central experience, and a game (some electronic interactive experience) is a peripheral add-on designed to enhance or contribute to that central experience. And on those terms, you are right - no such analogous example exists.

But - what about improvisational music? The interplay of jazz musicians sometimes seems like a game: it has rules, it has a goal, it has players using their skills cooperatively to reach that goal. Certainly music is the central aim, but it's hard to deny that the musicians are having fun with the making of it as well. I don't know of any videogame that attempts to capture that experience, but I can see how one could be made.

So, as long as ClockworkGrue is challenging the hip-hop and machinima community, let me offer this modest proposal to the game developers. If the making of music could be expressed as a game, I'd play it - in both senses of the word.

Jim Munroe

"So when will I get to see a thug rap video cut together with scenes from DOOM III? Machinima community? Underground hip-hop community? I'm looking at you two."

Seen Rebel vs. Thug? Chuck D must have read this post and got a time machine.

CarCarRoRo

"The day I see a bands release a video games as an expression of art is when I'll see a direct relationship."

I was thinking about this and found myself wondering if has to be a band directly aiding in the interpretation of they're own stuff. Guess I'm puzzling over what you could call expression of art. I mean, take something like Wipeout XL. Sure, it was a racing game, but it was entirely devoted to the electronic music culture of the later 90's. While its never came out and SAID it was about The Chemical Brothers or whatever, I always thought it was the music (and the imagery, concepts, etc. behind/within it) that were center stage. Could just be me, but if that IS what at least SOME of the people at Psygnosis (I think that was the developer) were, isn't that the kind of thing your talking about?

clubberjack

Iron Maiden did release a game... "Ed Hunter". Different parts of the game correspond to different albums from the Maidens' discography. I don't think it was explicitly about interacting with the music, but Iron Maiden must have seen it as an extension of their music and another way of reaching listeners.

I don't think anyone has quite done interactive music in a big way just yet, but if games like Rez, Frequency and Amplitude are any indication, we'll get some soon... In fact, the band P.O.D. released a mini-version of Amplitude on one of their CDs [Slashdot article].

In addtion, there are many people working on interactive musical experiences in which music is the central driving force. Groups like the League of Electronic Musical Urban Robots are investigating robotically performed music, while people like Tina Blaine are working on collaborative musical experiences such as the Jam-O-Drum. The Jam-O-Drum comes close to being a game-influenced musical experience, though I think it's still more about the game than the music...

misuba

Of course, MTV doesn't innovate, it trend-spots.

And accepts payola. I imagine EA took a special interest in helping Columbia kick down for this one.

Draigon

Just to clarify a bit, I guess what I meant is a synergy of two mediums to convey the same message where the focus is on both mediums simultaenously.

Ed Hunter sounds close to what I was thinking, but I get the impression it's meant just as a goof to parade Iron Maiden visuals around, not to actually communicate the artists message. The equivalent would be a movie with Iron Maiden posters on walls and music in the background, but the movie is about good table manners. Maybe Iron Maiden is all about good table manners, but I wouldn't know. I'm not a fan. :)

ClockworkGrue's post was about game-inspired art as it pertains to music; I was only trying to point out the difference between game-inspired art and game-related art (something I would be excited about if the music industry ever embraced).

TitusByronicus

so would a band writing music about and inspired by video games fit the category of "game-inspired art as it pertains to music"? i know there are musicians out there who have written music inspired by super mario, though i can't think of any offhand.

in other words, if a musician did something analogous to seth barkan's "blue wizard is about to die", wouldn't that be significant game-inspired music?

ClockworkGrue

ClockworkGrue's post was about game-inspired art as it pertains to music; I was only trying to point out the difference between game-inspired art and game-related art

Actually, my post was about nothing so lofty. I was simply interested that here we have a very main-stream MTV-ized hip-hop video that uses real footage from a real videogame (as opposed to the Chili Peppers' video, which simply took videogames as a starting concept), and, in my opinion more importantly, actual footage of actual people actually playing an actual game. I don't read this as NFL Street artfully inspiring a music video. No, Kay Slay is a playable character in the game. This is cross-marketing. The fact that MTV is playing this shows that games are becoming a lot less geeky than they were even 5 years ago.

Andrew

I wrote a song about Silent Hill... Does that count?

bryan young

Recently MTV has been jumping on the videogame bandwagon. They had a videogame countdown show and more recently a "Video Mods" show which took videogame footage and set it to music. I found a link that talked about it here.

The one video I saw was a remix of N.E.R.D. song, which is of course fronted by Pharrell of the Neptunes and is of African decent. Number of non-whites in the "video mod"? zero.

BrainFromArous

My problem with this is that I have always personally found Video Games to be socially acceptable. However I find Hip-Hop and Hoochie-Mamas to be socially UNacceptable, therefore I have a hard time seeing this as progress. ;)

Total agreement. The less cross-pollination between gaming and that ghetto garbage, the better.

Jeffool

bryan, that show you mentioned, "Video Mods", featured SSX on a Missy Elliot track, two videos with The Sims both on Outkast tracks, and Need For Speed on the NERD track that bryan mentioned.

Speaking racially, I only remember the Outkast videos. One was all-white (Andre3000's), the other had a back-up singer and a couple of women who were black(Big Boi's), as I recall.

But something that I find even more important, is that these are all EA games. So let's not say that "MTV is getting into games." I think Jim's example of Chuck D's 'Rebel vs Thug vs' is a much more 'pure' example.

Of course this is all to be expected I think. Video games will become more a part of popular culture. No big deal.

Jeffool

Oh, and yeah Grue, you get bonus points for Getto Boys.

TitusByronicus

that's 'Ghetto Boys'. uhm... *ahem*. yeah.

Union Carbide

Actually, you're both wrong, it's Geto Boys.

The Video Mods thing was pretty much a 30m paid advert. The Missy Elliot one was pretty good technically, the Sims: Bustin' Out one was meh, and the NERD one was utter crap. Seriously, it looks like a rough cut, the lighting is super harsh, and the models look like shit.

TitusByronicus

i stand corrected ;-)

Jeffool

I cry corrected. *sniff* I have a fragile ego.

jnnx

"The Video Mods thing was pretty much a 30m paid advert. The Missy Elliot one was pretty good technically, the Sims: Bustin' Out one was meh, and the NERD one was utter crap. Seriously, it looks like a rough cut, the lighting is super harsh, and the models look like shit."

i think you hit the nail on the head. Instead of "art", (which we are always promised) we will get more highly styilized adverts for lackluster talent.

I thought the video for Rebel Vs Thug was silly. I had nothing whatsoever to do with the song, for content without context.

maybe this is why i fell out of the videogame community so many years ago. Maybe its "too much in touch" with the mainstream now.

Azrael

yeah it's pretty cool to be a gamer now i guess, especially with sports titles. i can talk to just about any male in my school about champ man, for eexample, same with pro evo soccer or fifa or whatever. champ man fucking rocks, by the way, but i don't expect any non-football (as in "soccer" for you americans) fans to know it. but trust me, it fucking rules. it's more addictive than busta-a-move, i shit you not.

but there's still a long way to go. nintendo, for example, is viewed as childish and stupid. oh well, what can we do?

outsider

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