Perspective

Been meaning to post this for awhile (Mike's posts keep reminding me), but here's a comprehensive list of the things you can do in GTA (all of them) and Sims (all of them) that no lawyers, Senators, or parents took a legal stand against before Hot Coffee. Yes, there were a lot of complaints, and "investigations," but nothing was ever done about them. Put ones I've missed in the comments and I'll try and add them back to this list.

What's okay in GTA (the series) for seventeen year olds:

Assault with a deadly weapon.
Battery
Murder
Assassination
Vehicular homicide/manslaughter
Grand theft auto (duh)
Sex with prostitutes (tastefully hidden!)
Racketeering
Drug trafficking

What's not okay in GTA (the series) for seventeen year olds:

Consentual softcore sex between two adults, one of which is fully clothed.

What's okay in Sims (the series) for thirteen year olds:

Removing a ladder from a pool to induce drowning.
Locking someone in a room until they die from exhaustion.
Intentionally getting sims to wet/soil themselves.
Voyeurism (Sims taking showers)
Tricking people into setting themselves on fire in a kitchen.

What's not okay in Sims (mostly 2) for thirteen year olds:

Consentual implied sex between two adults, nudity mosaic'd out and they basically play under the sheets making monkey and dog noises.

Tabling lying to the ESRB and even putting the whole Sims2 points aside (because honestly, I find any of Thompson's arguments against Sims2 to be hollow at best, I just included them to show a trend), isn't it just a lot bit late for anyone to be complaining about the sex issue? I don't mean us complaining, I mean I find it almost laughable at this point that people might think that there's any seventeen year olds who haven't seen worse than Hot Coffee already, and those that are playing GTA:SA need to have their virgin eyes saved. Let's face it: you've already lost that battle. If a kid has the ability or inclination to mod GTA:SA for Hot Coffee, they've probably bit-torrented their fair share of porn by now.

I have no doubt that there are some 17 year old kids somewhere in [insert random middle-of-nowhere USA state here in order to offend everyone who lives there] who haven't seen worse than Hot Coffee, but they're probably not playing GTA.

Furthermore, is giving the game an AO rating really going to solve anything? Do we really think that having a kid wait 365 days between playing the non Hot Coffee (true M, 17+ only) version of GTA:SA and the AO (18+ only) rated Hot Coffee version is actually saving anyone?

Comments

[Foopy]

I thought Hot Coffee was more of a boiling point, like "the last straw" that officially gave the critics something to vent all their anger and rage through. It's like the parent who grounds their kid for a month because they didn't do their homework or something, but it's really because of all that crap they've been pulling the last few weeks. The end result, though, is still something that could use a closer look.

Instead of asking whether giving GTA an AO rating is going to help anyone, we should be asking if giving any game an AO rating over an M is going to help anyone. As Penny Arcade's Tycho points out, there's such a trivial and ambiguous difference between the AO and M ratings that making them two separate ratings doesn't seem to make much sense.

On the MPAA rating system, there's a decent distinction between the R and NC-17 ratings, which are supposedly analogous to ESRB's M and AO: kids under 17 aren't allowed into a movie without a parent or guardian in a rated R movie, but no one 17 and under is allowed into a NC-17 movie. The one year difference is trivial; the main distinction is essentially that R ratings are saying, "alright, we think that this movie has some questionable content so we're not going to let your kids see this unless you're with them" whereas NC-17 ratings are saying, "alright, this movie is just completely inappropriate for kids and we're not letting ANY of them in here." I think that's an understandable distinction.

But there is no such distinction in the ESRB rating system, which ultimately trivializes the difference between M and AO ratings. If there's anything helpful Hot Coffee has done in the long run, I think it's that the controversy has brought light to why the ESRB ratings system needs to be reconsidered.

[captainspankypants]

I think your GTA list nees to be more descriptive. "Assault with a deadly weapon" is accurate, but I believe most people, even the conservative political retards now decrying the game, were already well aware of it, at least in those terms. Everyone, including my mom, knows you can kill a prostitute in GTA, but beyond that, all that most non-gamers know is "murder," "battery," "assault," etc. If you listed things like "stab an old woman to death with a screwdriver" or "catch a homeless person on fire," you'd probably be more likely to get the reaction you're looking for.

[Wong]

Don't forget the "Assault with deadly dildos" in GTA:SA...

[Firebomb]

You forgot throwing money at strippers, that's also in GTA:SA.

[Jeffrey]

Like everyone else, you're forgetting a very key point. Many people younger than seventeen are playing GTA. Is this the parents fault? As a parent of two young gamers and being hardcore myself, I can honestly answer, NO.

Wal-mart sells GTA, Target, etc, etc. Since the game finally went AO it went off the shelves, one less thing that a parent has to "deal" with. If the game isn't even the store parents won't be harassed by their children to have them purchase the game. Trust me, kids are relentless. I'm guessing the weak parents give in and buy the game. Of course they shouldn't buy the game nor be so weak as to give in. Have kids and you'll understand.

Lastly, personally to me, sex is NOT the reason this game should have been AO. GTA should have always been AO and your list just proves it. But alas, if GTA was AO it would not have sold nearly what it has. So, let's all thank the ESRB for giving into Rockstar and allowing them to ship GTA as "M" and cause all this mess. Rockstar "hiding" the mini-game in there was just plain dumb on their part as well.

I blame the ESRB and their conflict of interest connections to the ESA.

[kellyrued]

I agree with Jeffrey that the AO (and subsequent removal of GTA from popular family-friendly retail outlets) will make the buying decision easier for parents (most of whom are very busy non-gamers who don't have a clue what's actually in the GTA game or how it can be worse for their kid than a mobster movie).

The major issue at hand though was that those 365 days between age 17 and 18 DO MATTER, and in fact most US law draws a distinct line at age 18 where one becomes legally responsible for oneself. An 18-year-old does not have any laws restricting the sale of regulated content to them as a 17-year-old does. And for your information, there is no US law regarding violent content (although some violent content may fall under obscenity laws, depending) but there are numerous laws in every state and at the federal level regulating the sale *and* use of graphic sexual content. For those of us making adult games who understand the legal environment we operate in, the difference between 17 and 18 is a crucial one indeed.

As for Jeffrey's comment about the ESRB and ESA; this is not an issue. The ESRB operates independently and they get paid by the publishers themselves (Take Two paid $2500 to get GTA:SA rated, the same as every other title pays to be rated). This does not imply a conflict of interest because the ESRB has in the past given out AO ratings to "paying" publishers but it should be noted (for the above reasons regarding US content regulations) the only titles thus far to recieve AO ratings have had strong/graphic sexual content. No title has been rated AO for violence alone and I think that whether you personally agree or not, this reflects the US's cutlural values to a tee. We can deal with the difference between real and make-believe violence but we can't differentiate (or appreciate) fantasy sex.

[Dashiva]

I thought long and hard about even saying anything in this particular debate. Just about everything has been said, and by people far more articulate than I. But if you've actually made it this far down a comment page then, like me, you are interested in other peoples opinions.
That this is even an issue, just boggles my mind. I own GTA:SA, I quite enjoy it, but I've never considered unlocking the "Hot Coffee" mod simply because its not worth the effort. The mod is freely available on the internet, but SO IS PORN. Why bother to download something that unlocks poorly animated characters bumping uglies, when you could simply download the porn? Or I could just go rent any of a few thousand movies at the local video store that has softcore content. Or I could just watch cable TV at night, there is plenty of explicit material on there.
So in summary, its ok for CJ (main character of GTA) to beat a hooker to death with a pair of brass knuckles, get into a vicious gun fight with the cops, and (my favourite passtime in GTA) take a sniper rifle and decapitate passing pedestrians. But the consensual sex makes it wrong. Have we got our priorities backwards, or what?!
Disagree with me? I'm happy for you, and I will read any responses with an open mind *GASP*, amazing, I know. Just don't rag on my spelling or grammar, I couldn't care less.

[Rock Steady]

Jeffery is right. As a parent, it certainly does help when products that my child wants, but should not have, are removed from the market. Next up, I hope, are Apple Jacks and Froot Loops. My daughter is always perstering me to get her sugary, non-nutritive, breakfast cereal, when she should really have Cheerios. After that, I hope liquor is removed from the shelves, because once she is a teenager, she may want to drink while underage, and trying to stop that sounds like some difficult parenting.

[outsider]

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[Allan]

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[mathew]

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[NintendoArielle]

Sex shouldn't be such a taboo thing. If people (and especially teens,) were exposed to it more, they wouldn't feel nearly as pressured to actually do it. It's the "cool," "rebelling" factor that makes high school freshmen feeling pressured to start ASAP. Also, what young child HAS a libido?! Why block a freaking porn channel that a kid is going to barf over? Little boys will go "Ew, girls have cooties!" And girls will say the same thing, only replacing the world "girls" with "boys." Apparently it's okay for Paris Hilton to strut around in skimpy outfits and influencing girls to do the same, yet it's a horrible thing to observe consensual, softcore, and primarily emotional sexual intercourse. Seriously, what the hell?!